9 ms·

An Unexpected Effect of Ultra-Marathons: Temporary Brain Shrinkage

61 points by bootload 11y ago

cafard 11y ago
Goodness. There are ultra-marathons, and then there are trans-continental ultra-marathons. I have a friend who did a number of 50s, at least one 100 (I was there to watch), and I think a Canada to NYC run. Her brain seems to fine as she approaches 60, but her knees aren't up to long distances. (Full disclosure: I ran a few times over 26.2, only once as far as 50.)
- bootload 11y ago
  "as she approaches 60, but her knees aren't up to long distances." @cafard, know the feeling. Most of the people I know who ran seriously retired in their 40's, knees smashed. What caught my interest in this article was the quote: "After about 1,553 miles, the researchers noted that the cartilage that normally cushions joints showed signs of breaking down. But after that point, the runners started building their cartilage again, even without rest. " What's going on there? (my disclosure: Keenwalk, 2010 http://seldomlogical.com/2011/MAR/12/keenwalk-why-i-went/ http://seldomlogical.com/2011/MAR/12/keenwalk-why-i-went/ cf Hackernews https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126078 and regular 2000km/yr PT)
  - DiabloD3 11y ago
    Wait, if they kept walking past the point of damage... cartilage damage would start going away?! Am I reading what you quoted correctly?
    - bootload 11y ago
      "cartilage damage would start going away?" Running. That's what I quoted from the article. Don't believe it is significant enough though. The citation follows [0] and one study of 44 runners? [0] Uwe Schütz, M.D (specialist in orthopedics and trauma surgery in the Department of Diagnostic and Interventional Radiology at the University Hospital of Ulm in Germany) Jürgen Machann, M.D., and Christian Billich, M.D. "Imaging Identifies Cartilage Regeneration in Long-Distance Runners" Abstract: https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/rsna/media/pr2015/schuetz/abstract/Schuetz.pdf https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/rsna/media/pr2015/schuetz/abs... and some more explanation: - https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target.cfm?ID=506 https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target... - https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/14_pr_target.cfm?id=1848 https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/14_pr_tar...
    - cgriswald 11y ago
      That actually makes a bit of sense to me. Uneducated guess: The cartilage breaks down, releasing some chemical, hormone, or just bits of cartilage into the blood which the body detects at levels above some threshold, prompting the body to begin producing more cartilage.
      - doug1001 11y ago
        could be right. (i have no idea about this particular instance but) a whole bunch of our metabolic pathways are initiated/regulated through negative feedback loops like the one you described.
  - jacalata 11y ago
    I think recent studies don't support the idea that running destroys your knees, actually.
    - austinjp 11y ago
      This is correct. The true picture is complex and not fully understood. Distance running tends to increase surface area of knee cartilage. Lifting weights seems to increase thickness of cartilage. However, thickness of cartilage seems to have a maximum value beyond which it will not increase. This may be because the chondocytes (cells inside the cartilage that produce and maintain it) gain all their nutrition by diffusion, so cartilage that is too thick would prevent adequate nutrition. Lack of activity certainly leads to reduction in cartilage thickness, possibly surface area. It is unclear how exercise should be prescribed to optimally restore this. Irregularities in cartilage surface, due to injury or possibly genetic bad luck, can produce irregular pressure on the underlying bone surface. This seems to be a driving factor in bone changes in early osteoarthritis. Everyone's response to exercise is unique to them. It's not currently easy to say whether distance running is "good for you". However, the benefits of exercise generally outweigh the risks. Personally I suspect that only a tiny minority of people are capable of regularly running marathon distances and benefiting from that. If you are over 40, don't expect to do then save intensity or duration of your younger peers, particularly if you are starting a new form of exercise. Your body has already adapted to your lifestyle, and it will be slower to adapt. But find what works for you, do what feels good, don't compare yourself to others, and enjoy yourself.
      - mironathetin 11y ago
        "But find what works for you, do what feels good, don't compare yourself to others, and enjoy yourself." That sounds good and right, especially 'don't compare yourself to others'. It is a good Zen training to let others go faster and stick to ones own goals.
    - VeejayRampay 11y ago
      It really depends on your stride and general form, doesn't it? It sounds reasonable that overstriding (landing with your foot ahead of the imaginary vertical line passing through your body) would place a lot of pressure on the knee, which would result in long-term damage. The same goes for the landing, it's easier on the body to make good use of the natural mechanism present in the arch of the foot by landing on the mid-foot (ball of the foot). Daniel Lieberman (Harvard professor) has excellent research on the subject for those interested.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  Get her a bike!
iSnow 11y ago
I doubt brain volume shrinkage in itself is alarming - it could well be a physical effect from the shaking or something akin to dehydration (I know the brain is suspended in liquor). Assessing the cognitive capabilities before and after would be more interesting, but of course much more complicated. Also: 1000+km runs, my god...
- terryf 11y ago
  > I know the brain is suspended in liquor eh, a man can dream, but reality be a harsh mistress!
endurancerobot 11y ago
Hi! If somebody have any question on these thems: high technology production, mainly, lasers, diode laser engravers, telepresence robots and robotized systems, please write me on this mail adress gf@endurancerobots.com Here my presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRX1NEYotM&feature=youtu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRX1NEYotM&feature=youtu.
jackgavigan 11y ago
It's a pity they didn't normalize/baseline for dehydration, which has been demonstrated to result in brain shrinkage: http://campus.neurochirurgie.fr/IMG/pdf/changement_volume_cerebral_avec_hydratation.pdf http://campus.neurochirurgie.fr/IMG/pdf/changement_volume_ce...
rubyfan 11y ago
I'd love to do the same study on an 8 hour day of meetings and compare to an extended period of uninterrupted coding.
omginternets 11y ago
This just in: ultra-marathons are not healthy. I'm perpetually amazed by the inability of people -- especially Americans -- to distinguish between sport and exercise. There's a rich body of literature tying high injury rates (unsurprising) and metabolic dysfunction (more surprising) to extreme competitive sports.
will_brown 11y ago
I have only recently begun running (18 months) and in that time I have completed multiple halfs, with my first full in January (actually a 2 day: half followed by a full). My goal is to beging doing the 5 day desert ultras. To date it have been an interest learning experience/experiment. I used to eat Paleo, without any exercise I was fairly ripped. I dropped Paleo a year ago to incorporate carbs, over the year I have gained 15-20 lbs due to change in diet, while my overall intake has remained about the same. I don't think this is unusual for new distance runner who don't change diets as generally runners will need to increase intake to the point it exceeds what people burn. Training in tropical weather (Miami) I have run into the issue of heat stroke a few times. This is completely distinct from dehydration and pushes me to train at night. I developed compartment syndrome and subsequently (thru trial and error) discovered a topical treatment that does not cure but prevents the symptoms. Whereas the only solution that appears anywhere online for this phenomenon is surgery. I would love the opportunity to formally test my topical treatment in an official clinical lab setting. Diatance running no doubt has odd effects on the body (short term and longe term) but from the just based anecdotally on the hundreds of 60-70 years olds I see in these races who have been running for decades I think it's a good bet overall distance running has a net positive impact on quality of life.
- austinjp 11y ago
  Hi there. Very interested in your topical treatment for compartment syndrome. Frankly, I am very sceptical that (a) it works or (b) you had compartment syndrome. Can you provide further details?
  - will_brown 11y ago
    I would simply say this, and if you have CS you should agree, CS is unmistakable. That said there are 2 types I am aware of, CS as a result of accidents/trauma and athletically induced, mine being the later. (b) Within 30 seconds to 2 minutes of running the pressure/pain begins. Personally I get swelling/bulging in 2 of the compartments to the extent it is clearly visible to the naked eye (this never happened before the CS or when using my topical treatment). In the few instances I "power through" the pain, which I have found mostly impossible, it will lead first to numbness in my feet (though the pain never subsides in the compartments and only increases) and then I develop drop foot during the run. Within ~1 minute of ceasing the run the pain subsides. (a): I have experimented to the point that I have isolated the CS in 2 out of 4 compartments in each leg. If I don't use the treatment I always have the pain/swelling/pressure. Additionally, through experiments I know I can target one of the compartments in each leg and still have the pain/pressure/swelling in the untreated compartments. Another note, if I apply to topical treatment and don't run within ~1 hour I will develop the pain/swelling/pressure to a lesser degree, but when I go running immediately I have had runs as long as 3 hours and do not experience any symptoms. My discovery was not random luck, as I experimented with rollers, icing, heating, stretching, shoes, running surface, other topicals, etc... Having found the treatment I don't employ any other variables such as stretching, icing, or heating. It really isn't so crazy to conclude there are topical treatments the body will absorb that could change the fascia viscosity to accommodate muscle expansion. As I said, I would love the opportunity to go through clinical testing to confirm my treatment works. I am not sure how big the CS market is, but I know that after only 18 months of running I was unwilling to give it up, and surgery is not practical.

61 points by bootload 11y ago

Goodness. There are ultra-marathons, and then there are trans-continental ultra-marathons. I have a friend who did a number of 50s, at least one 100 (I was there to watch), and I think a Canada to NYC run. Her brain seems to fine as she approaches 60, but her knees aren't up to long distances. (Full disclosure: I ran a few times over 26.2, only once as far as 50.)

bootload 11y ago
"as she approaches 60, but her knees aren't up to long distances." @cafard, know the feeling. Most of the people I know who ran seriously retired in their 40's, knees smashed. What caught my interest in this article was the quote: "After about 1,553 miles, the researchers noted that the cartilage that normally cushions joints showed signs of breaking down. But after that point, the runners started building their cartilage again, even without rest. " What's going on there? (my disclosure: Keenwalk, 2010 http://seldomlogical.com/2011/MAR/12/keenwalk-why-i-went/ http://seldomlogical.com/2011/MAR/12/keenwalk-why-i-went/ cf Hackernews https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126078 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126078 and regular 2000km/yr PT)
- DiabloD3 11y ago
  Wait, if they kept walking past the point of damage... cartilage damage would start going away?! Am I reading what you quoted correctly?
  - bootload 11y ago
    "cartilage damage would start going away?" Running. That's what I quoted from the article. Don't believe it is significant enough though. The citation follows [0] and one study of 44 runners? [0] Uwe Schütz, M.D (specialist in orthopedics and trauma surgery in the Department of Diagnostic and Interventional Radiology at the University Hospital of Ulm in Germany) Jürgen Machann, M.D., and Christian Billich, M.D. "Imaging Identifies Cartilage Regeneration in Long-Distance Runners" Abstract: https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/rsna/media/pr2015/schuetz/abstract/Schuetz.pdf https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/rsna/media/pr2015/schuetz/abs... and some more explanation: - https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target.cfm?ID=506 https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/pr_target... - https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/14_pr_target.cfm?id=1848 https://www2.rsna.org/timssnet/media/pressreleases/14_pr_tar...
  - cgriswald 11y ago
    That actually makes a bit of sense to me. Uneducated guess: The cartilage breaks down, releasing some chemical, hormone, or just bits of cartilage into the blood which the body detects at levels above some threshold, prompting the body to begin producing more cartilage.
    - doug1001 11y ago
      could be right. (i have no idea about this particular instance but) a whole bunch of our metabolic pathways are initiated/regulated through negative feedback loops like the one you described.
- jacalata 11y ago
  I think recent studies don't support the idea that running destroys your knees, actually.
  - austinjp 11y ago
    This is correct. The true picture is complex and not fully understood. Distance running tends to increase surface area of knee cartilage. Lifting weights seems to increase thickness of cartilage. However, thickness of cartilage seems to have a maximum value beyond which it will not increase. This may be because the chondocytes (cells inside the cartilage that produce and maintain it) gain all their nutrition by diffusion, so cartilage that is too thick would prevent adequate nutrition. Lack of activity certainly leads to reduction in cartilage thickness, possibly surface area. It is unclear how exercise should be prescribed to optimally restore this. Irregularities in cartilage surface, due to injury or possibly genetic bad luck, can produce irregular pressure on the underlying bone surface. This seems to be a driving factor in bone changes in early osteoarthritis. Everyone's response to exercise is unique to them. It's not currently easy to say whether distance running is "good for you". However, the benefits of exercise generally outweigh the risks. Personally I suspect that only a tiny minority of people are capable of regularly running marathon distances and benefiting from that. If you are over 40, don't expect to do then save intensity or duration of your younger peers, particularly if you are starting a new form of exercise. Your body has already adapted to your lifestyle, and it will be slower to adapt. But find what works for you, do what feels good, don't compare yourself to others, and enjoy yourself.
    - mironathetin 11y ago
      "But find what works for you, do what feels good, don't compare yourself to others, and enjoy yourself." That sounds good and right, especially 'don't compare yourself to others'. It is a good Zen training to let others go faster and stick to ones own goals.
  - VeejayRampay 11y ago
    It really depends on your stride and general form, doesn't it? It sounds reasonable that overstriding (landing with your foot ahead of the imaginary vertical line passing through your body) would place a lot of pressure on the knee, which would result in long-term damage. The same goes for the landing, it's easier on the body to make good use of the natural mechanism present in the arch of the foot by landing on the mid-foot (ball of the foot). Daniel Lieberman (Harvard professor) has excellent research on the subject for those interested.
rorykoehler 11y ago
Get her a bike!

iSnow 11y ago

I doubt brain volume shrinkage in itself is alarming - it could well be a physical effect from the shaking or something akin to dehydration (I know the brain is suspended in liquor). Assessing the cognitive capabilities before and after would be more interesting, but of course much more complicated. Also: 1000+km runs, my god...

terryf 11y ago
> I know the brain is suspended in liquor eh, a man can dream, but reality be a harsh mistress!

endurancerobot 11y ago

Hi! If somebody have any question on these thems: high technology production, mainly, lasers, diode laser engravers, telepresence robots and robotized systems, please write me on this mail adress gf@endurancerobots.com Here my presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRX1NEYotM&feature=youtu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRX1NEYotM&feature=youtu.

jackgavigan 11y ago

It's a pity they didn't normalize/baseline for dehydration, which has been demonstrated to result in brain shrinkage: http://campus.neurochirurgie.fr/IMG/pdf/changement_volume_cerebral_avec_hydratation.pdf http://campus.neurochirurgie.fr/IMG/pdf/changement_volume_ce...

rubyfan 11y ago

I'd love to do the same study on an 8 hour day of meetings and compare to an extended period of uninterrupted coding.

omginternets 11y ago

This just in: ultra-marathons are not healthy. I'm perpetually amazed by the inability of people -- especially Americans -- to distinguish between sport and exercise. There's a rich body of literature tying high injury rates (unsurprising) and metabolic dysfunction (more surprising) to extreme competitive sports.

will_brown 11y ago

I have only recently begun running (18 months) and in that time I have completed multiple halfs, with my first full in January (actually a 2 day: half followed by a full). My goal is to beging doing the 5 day desert ultras. To date it have been an interest learning experience/experiment. I used to eat Paleo, without any exercise I was fairly ripped. I dropped Paleo a year ago to incorporate carbs, over the year I have gained 15-20 lbs due to change in diet, while my overall intake has remained about the same. I don't think this is unusual for new distance runner who don't change diets as generally runners will need to increase intake to the point it exceeds what people burn. Training in tropical weather (Miami) I have run into the issue of heat stroke a few times. This is completely distinct from dehydration and pushes me to train at night. I developed compartment syndrome and subsequently (thru trial and error) discovered a topical treatment that does not cure but prevents the symptoms. Whereas the only solution that appears anywhere online for this phenomenon is surgery. I would love the opportunity to formally test my topical treatment in an official clinical lab setting. Diatance running no doubt has odd effects on the body (short term and longe term) but from the just based anecdotally on the hundreds of 60-70 years olds I see in these races who have been running for decades I think it's a good bet overall distance running has a net positive impact on quality of life.

austinjp 11y ago
Hi there. Very interested in your topical treatment for compartment syndrome. Frankly, I am very sceptical that (a) it works or (b) you had compartment syndrome. Can you provide further details?
- will_brown 11y ago
  I would simply say this, and if you have CS you should agree, CS is unmistakable. That said there are 2 types I am aware of, CS as a result of accidents/trauma and athletically induced, mine being the later. (b) Within 30 seconds to 2 minutes of running the pressure/pain begins. Personally I get swelling/bulging in 2 of the compartments to the extent it is clearly visible to the naked eye (this never happened before the CS or when using my topical treatment). In the few instances I "power through" the pain, which I have found mostly impossible, it will lead first to numbness in my feet (though the pain never subsides in the compartments and only increases) and then I develop drop foot during the run. Within ~1 minute of ceasing the run the pain subsides. (a): I have experimented to the point that I have isolated the CS in 2 out of 4 compartments in each leg. If I don't use the treatment I always have the pain/swelling/pressure. Additionally, through experiments I know I can target one of the compartments in each leg and still have the pain/pressure/swelling in the untreated compartments. Another note, if I apply to topical treatment and don't run within ~1 hour I will develop the pain/swelling/pressure to a lesser degree, but when I go running immediately I have had runs as long as 3 hours and do not experience any symptoms. My discovery was not random luck, as I experimented with rollers, icing, heating, stretching, shoes, running surface, other topicals, etc... Having found the treatment I don't employ any other variables such as stretching, icing, or heating. It really isn't so crazy to conclude there are topical treatments the body will absorb that could change the fascia viscosity to accommodate muscle expansion. As I said, I would love the opportunity to go through clinical testing to confirm my treatment works. I am not sure how big the CS market is, but I know that after only 18 months of running I was unwilling to give it up, and surgery is not practical.