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If you're a top ten percent programmer who charges $137/hr then this whole discussion probably isn't oriented at you. By definition, most programmers are not in

If you're a top ten percent programmer who charges $137/hr then this whole discussion probably isn't oriented at you. By definition, most programmers are not in the top ten percent. They make money by sitting down and writing code, not by projecting confidence and machismo. So why shouldn't they prove their abilities and evaluate the company and it's general environment by sitting down and actually coding? I'm very old and out of the loop, I have no idea what modern work-sample tests look like. I remember when I did one many years ago it was to the effect of "Write a script that checks to see if a URL returns a valid response code, and trigger an event if it does not". My prospective employer liked my coding style and I got hired. What was so wrong about that? As I recall, they intended to modify the script and use it in production whether they hired me or not. I also don't care about that. It took less than an hour, and it seemed like a valid form of evaluation. Maybe it's a pride thing, but I had no problem with it and I think a lot of other people would have been ok with that practice as well.

eropple 11y ago
Because you shouldn't work for free. That holds true for writers, that holds true for artists, that holds true for web designers, and that holds true for programmers. And unlike those other professions, the creative has the power in this relationship. What these companies hate admitting but all know is true is that even a mediocre programmer, a sit-down-and-write-code programmer, needs these companies more than the programmer needs them. If a company wanted to pay you for that work-sample test, that's different. But they don't, of course, because that costs them money instead of costing you. There's no need to let profit-seeking entities use you for nothing. You just don't need to be their monkey.
- mquander 11y ago
  I don't get why you perceive the realistic-work-sample test as "working for free", but the unrealistic-whiteboard test as "isn't work." They are both taking a similar amount of time and effort, serving the same purpose, and benefiting the same people.* The only difference is that one does a better job. *The primary beneficiary being you, if you're a top-10% programmer: It gives you a better chance to accurately show off your ability, which is probably worth thousands of dollars in salary.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Work-sample tests, in my experience, are universally "do this crap and then maybe we'll talk to you." It's nothing you'll get serious feedback on, it's nothing you can open-source, it's garbage code and wasted time that benefits the company unilaterally. But the alternative--it's not the whiteboard, it's the meeting people. Right now, I consult, but I do take interviews for "permanent positions". But we all know they aren't actually permanent positions. The last thirty years of corporatism have made this loud and clear: we are all expendable tools. and I go into them with that in mind: a W-2 doesn't mean I'm anything other than working for a client under a tax-advantageous status. Interviews are business development; I am effectively offering my exclusive services on retainer to a single company. So meeting people to discuss the gig (whether or not the whiteboard comes into play, the only interview I've been on in the last two years where I was both interested in the company and wrote code on the board was Google) benefits me, too: maybe it's not a fit, but maybe I meet somebody I'll remember as "hey, I'd like to work with them again." Or "hey, I don't want to work here, but I know somebody who will, so I can do them a solid and they can help me in the future." So, yeah, it is work. It's just business development, which is a different, and valuable, kind of work. And it applies to everybody, not just consultants; it's the game we're all playing even if one doesn't realize they're playing it.
    - mquander 11y ago
      OK, I agree it's also really important to spend a few hours meeting people, and I would never accept a job where I couldn't do that first. But I am personally thrilled to be able to spend two hours demonstrating that I am a really good programmer in all of the ways that a different kind of test doesn't pick up. That seems to benefit me a lot, and it also speaks well of the future coworkers I will have if I work at the company in question. Google's process (for instance) makes me nervous about this. (Disclaimer: I strongly prefer to quit my current job before looking for new jobs. If that weren't the case, I'm sure I would be more sensitive to anything that takes time, but I think I would still feel this way.)
      - eropple 11y ago
        You're OK with spending two hours doing something before you get anything out of it? 'Cause I'll readily admit that there are probably companies out there that do such a test afterwards, but I've never seen one personally. Instead it's the gate to protect their precious engineers' time. Yours, though? Yours doesn't matter, and that rustles my jimmies real fierce. Look at the opportunity costs: what if you could spend the time they want you to give them, for free, building something not only personally creditable but maybe even generally useful on Github? If you're good enough to show off, as you suggest, then your time is valuable enough that it should be respected. (A work-sample test that's a useful, valuable problem and can be open-sourced? I'd be down for that. But that would be haaaaard.)
- jholman 11y ago
  Most professionals do work for free, in small amounts relative to the amount of money at stake. If you clearly only need 2 hours of lawyer time, you pay for both of those hours. But if you're talking about maybe hiring a lawyer to do something complicated for you, the lawyer will give you an hour or two of time for free, in which they will use their professional expertise (i.e. do work) to assess whether or not your case will benefit from their services. But maybe you think law is a situation where the client has the power in the relationship? No worries, accountants do that too, as do architects and building contractors, as do SaaS companies, as do.... basically, as do members of every industry where the customer isn't obviously a penny pincher (i.e. retail sales does not do this). You made this exact case yourself in a related comment, in which you called meeting people business development. I agree there's a non-zero distinction here between work-hire-test and consulting-about-consulting, but claiming that the issue is that "you shouldn't work for free" is misleading. Also, you suggest that if they pay, that costs them instead of costing you. It already costs them more to interview than it costs you. But sure, if making sure they don't get any benefit out of their relationship with you unless you get benefit too, tell them you'll only do a work-hire if they make a donation to the EFF in the value of your hourly rate.
  - eropple 11y ago
    > But if you're talking about maybe hiring a lawyer to do something complicated for you, the lawyer will give you an hour or two of time for free, in which they will use their professional expertise (i.e. do work) to assess whether or not your case will benefit from their services. Of course. That's the sit-down-and-chat "interview". But lawyers don't draft up a contract for you to demonstrate that they can write up a contract to your satisfaction. If you want a lawyer's expertise applied concretely to something of your direction, you pay. And while lawyers do have bar exams, they don't have a very detailed demonstration of their work up on Lawhub for your perusal! > I agree there's a non-zero distinction here between work-hire-test and consulting-about-consulting, but claiming that the issue is that "you shouldn't work for free" is misleading. I think it's misleading only if you consider the beneficiary of that work to be the same in both cases. I don't. The only beneficiary of every work-sample test I've ever been given was the company--it goes into some black hole and whether it was even good or not, to say nothing of any actionable feedback, has literally-literally never been forthcoming. On the other hand, I have very rarely not benefited in some way from sitting down and chatting with a technical leader at a company, whether it was directly about their problems (or their solutions!) or about tech in general. Both in a consulting-about-consulting capacity and an interview one. > Also, you suggest that if they pay, that costs them instead of costing you. It already costs them more to interview than it costs you. In an absolute sense, it definitely costs them more. In a relative one, it emphatically does not: they've got plenty of bodies that can parallelize. I can be interviewing with them, or I can be working, or I can be mopping my bathroom floor. I can't be doing all of those things at once.
- aianus 11y ago
  Who said anything about working for free? The only work trial I've ever done was paid in full at the same rate as I would be making if I had already been hired. It was fun, and more profitable than a free boring discussion-based interview.
acrefoot 11y ago
eropple's entire spiel was in response to "A work-hire test...doesn't repel [the best programmers]", so saying that this discussion is irrelevant to a top 10% programmer doesn't really follow.
eru 11y ago
Actually, $137/hr is pretty cheap..
- eropple 11y ago
  Yup. It keeps me busy, but it's not anything extreme.

eropple 11y ago

Because you shouldn't work for free. That holds true for writers, that holds true for artists, that holds true for web designers, and that holds true for programmers. And unlike those other professions, the creative has the power in this relationship. What these companies hate admitting but all know is true is that even a mediocre programmer, a sit-down-and-write-code programmer, needs these companies more than the programmer needs them. If a company wanted to pay you for that work-sample test, that's different. But they don't, of course, because that costs them money instead of costing you. There's no need to let profit-seeking entities use you for nothing. You just don't need to be their monkey.

mquander 11y ago
I don't get why you perceive the realistic-work-sample test as "working for free", but the unrealistic-whiteboard test as "isn't work." They are both taking a similar amount of time and effort, serving the same purpose, and benefiting the same people.* The only difference is that one does a better job. *The primary beneficiary being you, if you're a top-10% programmer: It gives you a better chance to accurately show off your ability, which is probably worth thousands of dollars in salary.
- eropple 11y ago
  Work-sample tests, in my experience, are universally "do this crap and then maybe we'll talk to you." It's nothing you'll get serious feedback on, it's nothing you can open-source, it's garbage code and wasted time that benefits the company unilaterally. But the alternative--it's not the whiteboard, it's the meeting people. Right now, I consult, but I do take interviews for "permanent positions". But we all know they aren't actually permanent positions. The last thirty years of corporatism have made this loud and clear: we are all expendable tools. and I go into them with that in mind: a W-2 doesn't mean I'm anything other than working for a client under a tax-advantageous status. Interviews are business development; I am effectively offering my exclusive services on retainer to a single company. So meeting people to discuss the gig (whether or not the whiteboard comes into play, the only interview I've been on in the last two years where I was both interested in the company and wrote code on the board was Google) benefits me, too: maybe it's not a fit, but maybe I meet somebody I'll remember as "hey, I'd like to work with them again." Or "hey, I don't want to work here, but I know somebody who will, so I can do them a solid and they can help me in the future." So, yeah, it is work. It's just business development, which is a different, and valuable, kind of work. And it applies to everybody, not just consultants; it's the game we're all playing even if one doesn't realize they're playing it.
  - mquander 11y ago
    OK, I agree it's also really important to spend a few hours meeting people, and I would never accept a job where I couldn't do that first. But I am personally thrilled to be able to spend two hours demonstrating that I am a really good programmer in all of the ways that a different kind of test doesn't pick up. That seems to benefit me a lot, and it also speaks well of the future coworkers I will have if I work at the company in question. Google's process (for instance) makes me nervous about this. (Disclaimer: I strongly prefer to quit my current job before looking for new jobs. If that weren't the case, I'm sure I would be more sensitive to anything that takes time, but I think I would still feel this way.)
    - eropple 11y ago
      You're OK with spending two hours doing something before you get anything out of it? 'Cause I'll readily admit that there are probably companies out there that do such a test afterwards, but I've never seen one personally. Instead it's the gate to protect their precious engineers' time. Yours, though? Yours doesn't matter, and that rustles my jimmies real fierce. Look at the opportunity costs: what if you could spend the time they want you to give them, for free, building something not only personally creditable but maybe even generally useful on Github? If you're good enough to show off, as you suggest, then your time is valuable enough that it should be respected. (A work-sample test that's a useful, valuable problem and can be open-sourced? I'd be down for that. But that would be haaaaard.)
jholman 11y ago
Most professionals do work for free, in small amounts relative to the amount of money at stake. If you clearly only need 2 hours of lawyer time, you pay for both of those hours. But if you're talking about maybe hiring a lawyer to do something complicated for you, the lawyer will give you an hour or two of time for free, in which they will use their professional expertise (i.e. do work) to assess whether or not your case will benefit from their services. But maybe you think law is a situation where the client has the power in the relationship? No worries, accountants do that too, as do architects and building contractors, as do SaaS companies, as do.... basically, as do members of every industry where the customer isn't obviously a penny pincher (i.e. retail sales does not do this). You made this exact case yourself in a related comment, in which you called meeting people business development. I agree there's a non-zero distinction here between work-hire-test and consulting-about-consulting, but claiming that the issue is that "you shouldn't work for free" is misleading. Also, you suggest that if they pay, that costs them instead of costing you. It already costs them more to interview than it costs you. But sure, if making sure they don't get any benefit out of their relationship with you unless you get benefit too, tell them you'll only do a work-hire if they make a donation to the EFF in the value of your hourly rate.
- eropple 11y ago
  > But if you're talking about maybe hiring a lawyer to do something complicated for you, the lawyer will give you an hour or two of time for free, in which they will use their professional expertise (i.e. do work) to assess whether or not your case will benefit from their services. Of course. That's the sit-down-and-chat "interview". But lawyers don't draft up a contract for you to demonstrate that they can write up a contract to your satisfaction. If you want a lawyer's expertise applied concretely to something of your direction, you pay. And while lawyers do have bar exams, they don't have a very detailed demonstration of their work up on Lawhub for your perusal! > I agree there's a non-zero distinction here between work-hire-test and consulting-about-consulting, but claiming that the issue is that "you shouldn't work for free" is misleading. I think it's misleading only if you consider the beneficiary of that work to be the same in both cases. I don't. The only beneficiary of every work-sample test I've ever been given was the company--it goes into some black hole and whether it was even good or not, to say nothing of any actionable feedback, has literally-literally never been forthcoming. On the other hand, I have very rarely not benefited in some way from sitting down and chatting with a technical leader at a company, whether it was directly about their problems (or their solutions!) or about tech in general. Both in a consulting-about-consulting capacity and an interview one. > Also, you suggest that if they pay, that costs them instead of costing you. It already costs them more to interview than it costs you. In an absolute sense, it definitely costs them more. In a relative one, it emphatically does not: they've got plenty of bodies that can parallelize. I can be interviewing with them, or I can be working, or I can be mopping my bathroom floor. I can't be doing all of those things at once.
aianus 11y ago
Who said anything about working for free? The only work trial I've ever done was paid in full at the same rate as I would be making if I had already been hired. It was fun, and more profitable than a free boring discussion-based interview.

acrefoot 11y ago

eropple's entire spiel was in response to "A work-hire test...doesn't repel [the best programmers]", so saying that this discussion is irrelevant to a top 10% programmer doesn't really follow.

eru 11y ago

Actually, $137/hr is pretty cheap..

eropple 11y ago
Yup. It keeps me busy, but it's not anything extreme.