8 ms·

I'll use myself as an example -- I work as a programmer in the Defense industry. I've wanted out for years. So every so often I start sending out resumes and

by jcadam 11y ago

I'll use myself as an example -- I work as a programmer in the Defense industry. I've wanted out for years. So every so often I start sending out resumes and going on interviews. After wasting about half of my vacation time on (multiple) rounds of interviews with each prospective employer (that ultimately lead nowhere -- most often, a potential employer who inexplicably stops communicating with me), I give up. Then, when I need to find a new job (project/contract ending, etc.), I do the safe thing and apply to other defense companies, because getting an interview almost always results in an offer (and no multiple-rounds of white-board hazing either). After a while at the new job I'll start looking outside the industry again --- and promptly get pounded back into my pigeonhole :)

ryandrake 11y ago
"Whiteboard hazing" Heh. I'm going to squirrel that one away for later. It beautifully captures what's currently thought of as a best practice in tech interviewing.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dietrichepp 11y ago
  I've turned down offers when the interviews were like that.
brianchu 11y ago
I'm a CS student and most students I know dislike whiteboarding too (and by extension many, if not most, YC startup employees do too). But I'm pretty okay at them now, having had lots of practice. The key advantage for students I think is the ability to have sustained practice over the course of a month (e.g. > 4 onsites over the course of a month), which most students can afford since their schedules are flexible. Also, I've recently had interviews at a few YC companies you've heard of, and they had me code on my laptop. I didn't whiteboard at all except for system design questions. Reply to below: Most companies have me do at least one non-technical system design and/or talk-about-a-project interview.
- MCRed 11y ago
  IF they have you write code, think twice about taking the job. That's an indicator of a junior engineer conducting an interview in a company that didn't care enough to work out a good process. Seriously. I've been working for startups and starting companies for 26 years, and for half that time I've been building teams. I stopped asking people to code a long time ago. If they can't code it will be obvious by their answers to your questions (And I'm not talking about coding brain teasers either.) Ask them about a project they worked on and to explain to you how it worked. That's sufficient.
  - NhanH 11y ago
    I'm not trying to be pretentious here. But all big companies (Google etc.) I've interviewed so far asked me to code, what should I make of your advice?
    - erichmond 11y ago
      My guess is that he's referring to startups, not monstrous companies like Google. I think the reason you whiteboard for google interviews because you will necessarily be a cog in a wheel, and the focus of the cog is to code. At smaller companies / startups, you will potentially be expected to design, architect, gather requirements, code, etc.
      - arebop 11y ago
        I have worked at companies that don't expect candidates to code during interviews, and I have worked at companies that do. I was personally acquainted with programmers who couldn't write working code at the former, and I have never heard of a programmer who couldn't write working code at the latter. I'm sure this perfect correlation anecdote fails to generalize to all workplaces, but I would not accept a job at a company that hires by bs-session again.
        jon_richards 11y ago
MCRed 11y ago
I suggest only doing interviews in the evening via phone. (not video. I've been discriminated against by video, but never by phone.) Do this in the evening. If the job is in your town and you feel its reasonable to meet them in person, do it in the evening or on a weekend. Universally I've found that by being a little bit picky you filter out the people who aren't serious... and a lot of people aren't "serious". They might seriously want someone but they have no capability to identify that person accurately when they have found them.
swalsh 11y ago
"whiteboard hazing" there are two types of whiteboarding questions. The kind that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask (i've had people ask me to develop some simple system... which I think is reasonable, because i'll do that as part of the job) but then there's the solve x algorithm questions. Which ultimately is an exercise in memorization. At this point I've just accepted that i'll have to do that.
- ethbro 11y ago
  I think OP was perhaps referencing the human interaction that happens after you put something on a whiteboard with their "hazing" comment. We've all been in that interview with the one jerk engineer who seems to want to hear themselves talk more than honestly walk through a problem. (Hint: it tends to be the person who offers "Well, that's not the way I would have done it" as a negative and without further explanation)
- yoklov 11y ago
  Honestly neither are great ways to interview someone. The first is better, sure, but it doesn't actually tell you if they're a good programmer. The only thing I've found that does work is asking them about problems they've encountered/solved before, and then maybe have them write out something from them on the board. This gives pretty decent insight into their problem solving process.
- jholman 11y ago
  The best argument for whiteboard algorithm questions is that they (to some degree) filter out people who think that whiteboard questions are "an exercise in memorization". I mean, whether or not the company actually values the underlying non-memorization skill is another question (as someone who is very strong in that skill, I think that most companies/roles do not have a use for that, and should not test for that). But the main argument against whiteboard coding applies equally to both kinds of questions. That argument is that it's a psychologically unrealistic environment, and that the main signal you get from such questions is whether or not the interviewee is psychologically comfortable under this particular artificial form of pressure. Does this generalize to other types of pressure? Does it generalize to the work environment at large? I mean, me personally, I love whiteboard questions of either kind. Wheee. But I'm not convinced that the tech sector should use my hobby as the ultimate test of employability. (PS: and for good engineers who are bad at whiteboarding in interviews, I'm available for coaching, heh)
engi_nerd 11y ago
The defense industry is strange. I've had three jobs in it. In every single interview, the most technical question that anyone ever asked me was, "What do you like to do on the weekends?" And all three jobs have been engineering positions.
- ethbro 11y ago
  > "What do you like to do on the weekends?" I code for fun in Ada.
- meowface 11y ago
  I've only interviewed at one, but yes, it was the exact same for me. They asked me about school projects and times I acted like a "leader". No technical questions whatsoever, other than asking stuff like what programming languages I liked. I left feeling very confused, but after I received the offer, I realized it was basically a grunt work position, despite what the original job listing said.
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    The DoD are the biggest offenders in my past. They were the "what do you do for fun on the weekends" people. Turns out they are hiring engineers and telling them they will be doing actual engineering, then putting them to work as project managers and job estimators.
- jcadam 11y ago
  My last two jobs (including my current one) have been at smaller defense firms. Both interviews involved some amount of coding (mostly a 'homework' project). Now, several years ago when I interviewed with a frickin' huge aerospace company who shall remain nameless, my experience was similar to yours. The interview was a panel-style discussion with the hiring manager and several engineers. They had to follow a script given to them by HR and ask every candidate exactly the same questions in exactly the same way. It was.... surreal. At one point I was asked something along the lines of (my memory is a bit hazy here) "Describe a time when workplace diversity significantly contributed to the accomplishment of a challenging project." "Oookay. Uh... Well.... Uh... So... Hmm...," and so on and so forth.
oskarth 11y ago
Have you considered saving up enough money to quit and give yourself 3-6 months to find a job you enjoy?
- sireat 11y ago
  Somehow it seems wrong to be saving 6 month salary just to get into another job (even if you enjoy it). My Euro-biased perspective is for the job to be something that you don't actively hate doing. The fun stuff(hobbies, family, etc) can be done outside of that.
  - oskarth 11y ago
    For what it's worth, I too am European (Swedish). I think whatever works, well, works - If OP is fine doing what they are doing, there's no problem really. However, a lot of people seem to be (a) afraid of quitting jobs they hate (b) bad at saving money. Learning to quit a job you hate and to save money are both vey useful skills on their own. In reality, it might just take a few weeks of intense effort to find a new job in a different field - but it's always good to have a buffer, especially if you want to re-skill to a completely different field.
BinaryIdiot 11y ago
Exactly the same situation here; been in the defense space for a while and while it's easy to get another defense job as you already have a clearance (so you're a much safer bet) venturing out into the commercial world can be daunting. I once interviewed with Amazon and after flying out and doing the interview I'm told that they liked me but I wasn't a fit for the team and could interview with another team without a delay and they'd even help me figure out the team to interview with. But why would I waste my time again taking days off to fly out and either not pass the interview or interview with the "wrong team" again? When I interviewed at Microsoft it was a pretty positive experience aside from one person and while I certainly wasn't upset about not getting the position I was told they had 100 people interviewing in person for a single position (supposedly almost 1,000 applications). Great odds for Microsoft but for me taking 3 days off work to do it? Great experience but I'm not sure I'd do it again so easily.

by jcadam 11y ago

ryandrake 11y ago

"Whiteboard hazing" Heh. I'm going to squirrel that one away for later. It beautifully captures what's currently thought of as a best practice in tech interviewing.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dietrichepp 11y ago
I've turned down offers when the interviews were like that.

brianchu 11y ago

I'm a CS student and most students I know dislike whiteboarding too (and by extension many, if not most, YC startup employees do too). But I'm pretty okay at them now, having had lots of practice. The key advantage for students I think is the ability to have sustained practice over the course of a month (e.g. > 4 onsites over the course of a month), which most students can afford since their schedules are flexible. Also, I've recently had interviews at a few YC companies you've heard of, and they had me code on my laptop. I didn't whiteboard at all except for system design questions. Reply to below: Most companies have me do at least one non-technical system design and/or talk-about-a-project interview.

MCRed 11y ago
IF they have you write code, think twice about taking the job. That's an indicator of a junior engineer conducting an interview in a company that didn't care enough to work out a good process. Seriously. I've been working for startups and starting companies for 26 years, and for half that time I've been building teams. I stopped asking people to code a long time ago. If they can't code it will be obvious by their answers to your questions (And I'm not talking about coding brain teasers either.) Ask them about a project they worked on and to explain to you how it worked. That's sufficient.
- NhanH 11y ago
  I'm not trying to be pretentious here. But all big companies (Google etc.) I've interviewed so far asked me to code, what should I make of your advice?
  - erichmond 11y ago
    My guess is that he's referring to startups, not monstrous companies like Google. I think the reason you whiteboard for google interviews because you will necessarily be a cog in a wheel, and the focus of the cog is to code. At smaller companies / startups, you will potentially be expected to design, architect, gather requirements, code, etc.
    - arebop 11y ago
      I have worked at companies that don't expect candidates to code during interviews, and I have worked at companies that do. I was personally acquainted with programmers who couldn't write working code at the former, and I have never heard of a programmer who couldn't write working code at the latter. I'm sure this perfect correlation anecdote fails to generalize to all workplaces, but I would not accept a job at a company that hires by bs-session again.
      - jon_richards 11y ago

MCRed 11y ago

I suggest only doing interviews in the evening via phone. (not video. I've been discriminated against by video, but never by phone.) Do this in the evening. If the job is in your town and you feel its reasonable to meet them in person, do it in the evening or on a weekend. Universally I've found that by being a little bit picky you filter out the people who aren't serious... and a lot of people aren't "serious". They might seriously want someone but they have no capability to identify that person accurately when they have found them.

swalsh 11y ago

"whiteboard hazing" there are two types of whiteboarding questions. The kind that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask (i've had people ask me to develop some simple system... which I think is reasonable, because i'll do that as part of the job) but then there's the solve x algorithm questions. Which ultimately is an exercise in memorization. At this point I've just accepted that i'll have to do that.

ethbro 11y ago
I think OP was perhaps referencing the human interaction that happens after you put something on a whiteboard with their "hazing" comment. We've all been in that interview with the one jerk engineer who seems to want to hear themselves talk more than honestly walk through a problem. (Hint: it tends to be the person who offers "Well, that's not the way I would have done it" as a negative and without further explanation)
yoklov 11y ago
Honestly neither are great ways to interview someone. The first is better, sure, but it doesn't actually tell you if they're a good programmer. The only thing I've found that does work is asking them about problems they've encountered/solved before, and then maybe have them write out something from them on the board. This gives pretty decent insight into their problem solving process.
jholman 11y ago
The best argument for whiteboard algorithm questions is that they (to some degree) filter out people who think that whiteboard questions are "an exercise in memorization". I mean, whether or not the company actually values the underlying non-memorization skill is another question (as someone who is very strong in that skill, I think that most companies/roles do not have a use for that, and should not test for that). But the main argument against whiteboard coding applies equally to both kinds of questions. That argument is that it's a psychologically unrealistic environment, and that the main signal you get from such questions is whether or not the interviewee is psychologically comfortable under this particular artificial form of pressure. Does this generalize to other types of pressure? Does it generalize to the work environment at large? I mean, me personally, I love whiteboard questions of either kind. Wheee. But I'm not convinced that the tech sector should use my hobby as the ultimate test of employability. (PS: and for good engineers who are bad at whiteboarding in interviews, I'm available for coaching, heh)

engi_nerd 11y ago

The defense industry is strange. I've had three jobs in it. In every single interview, the most technical question that anyone ever asked me was, "What do you like to do on the weekends?" And all three jobs have been engineering positions.

ethbro 11y ago
> "What do you like to do on the weekends?" I code for fun in Ada.
meowface 11y ago
I've only interviewed at one, but yes, it was the exact same for me. They asked me about school projects and times I acted like a "leader". No technical questions whatsoever, other than asking stuff like what programming languages I liked. I left feeling very confused, but after I received the offer, I realized it was basically a grunt work position, despite what the original job listing said.
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  The DoD are the biggest offenders in my past. They were the "what do you do for fun on the weekends" people. Turns out they are hiring engineers and telling them they will be doing actual engineering, then putting them to work as project managers and job estimators.
jcadam 11y ago
My last two jobs (including my current one) have been at smaller defense firms. Both interviews involved some amount of coding (mostly a 'homework' project). Now, several years ago when I interviewed with a frickin' huge aerospace company who shall remain nameless, my experience was similar to yours. The interview was a panel-style discussion with the hiring manager and several engineers. They had to follow a script given to them by HR and ask every candidate exactly the same questions in exactly the same way. It was.... surreal. At one point I was asked something along the lines of (my memory is a bit hazy here) "Describe a time when workplace diversity significantly contributed to the accomplishment of a challenging project." "Oookay. Uh... Well.... Uh... So... Hmm...," and so on and so forth.

oskarth 11y ago

Have you considered saving up enough money to quit and give yourself 3-6 months to find a job you enjoy?

sireat 11y ago
Somehow it seems wrong to be saving 6 month salary just to get into another job (even if you enjoy it). My Euro-biased perspective is for the job to be something that you don't actively hate doing. The fun stuff(hobbies, family, etc) can be done outside of that.
- oskarth 11y ago
  For what it's worth, I too am European (Swedish). I think whatever works, well, works - If OP is fine doing what they are doing, there's no problem really. However, a lot of people seem to be (a) afraid of quitting jobs they hate (b) bad at saving money. Learning to quit a job you hate and to save money are both vey useful skills on their own. In reality, it might just take a few weeks of intense effort to find a new job in a different field - but it's always good to have a buffer, especially if you want to re-skill to a completely different field.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago

Exactly the same situation here; been in the defense space for a while and while it's easy to get another defense job as you already have a clearance (so you're a much safer bet) venturing out into the commercial world can be daunting. I once interviewed with Amazon and after flying out and doing the interview I'm told that they liked me but I wasn't a fit for the team and could interview with another team without a delay and they'd even help me figure out the team to interview with. But why would I waste my time again taking days off to fly out and either not pass the interview or interview with the "wrong team" again? When I interviewed at Microsoft it was a pretty positive experience aside from one person and while I certainly wasn't upset about not getting the position I was told they had 100 people interviewing in person for a single position (supposedly almost 1,000 applications). Great odds for Microsoft but for me taking 3 days off work to do it? Great experience but I'm not sure I'd do it again so easily.