4 ms·

A good example of why working at a place with such restrictive PTO is a trap. But, around here we like to have philosophical discussions about how unlimited vac

A good example of why working at a place with such restrictive PTO is a trap. But, around here we like to have philosophical discussions about how unlimited vacation time is the real trap. I dunno, guys. It seems to work pretty well for me.

metamet 11y ago
Or just start off with a proper number of days. Two weeks seems so short, especially if you get sick. 15 days total seems about right.
- jenshoop 11y ago
  Was just having this conversation -- is there any precedent for offering different teams and/or differing levels of tenure different vacation packages? My husband used to work at Groupon and said it was really challenging to give all entry-level sales people unlimited vacation because they tended to abuse it. However, unlimited vacation may work well for more tenured positions or even for different types of teams (engineering / design?) We thought this might be too tricky to administrate / unfair, but it does seem that it can be a useful and underabused perk for some and a disaster for others.
  - _delirium 11y ago
    In big companies, doing it by tenure with the company is common. A typical schedule is something like: start at 2 weeks/yr, and get an extra week/yr for every 5 years you stay with the company, topping out at 6 weeks/yr. That model has run into trouble as people change jobs more, and is uncommon in the Valley where people change jobs even more than that. Some companies have ditched it, while others will negotiate giving you credit for past jobs, e.g. I believe if Exxon hires you away from a 20-year career with BP, they'll often give you equivalent seniority at Exxon for benefits purposes.
  - chmullig 11y ago
    It's definitely done. A traditional method is that the longer you've been at a place, the more vacation you earn. Another technique I've seen is to have a divide, eg "VP and above get an extra 5 days per year." Facebook, Google, etc commonly use the contractor technique, where anyone you want to work for you but not give benefits becomes an independent contractor, or works for a vendor. Eg, the cooks in the Facebook kitchens.
    - jenshoop 11y ago
      Yeah - I've seen tiered vacation days based on seniority, but I'm wondering specifically about giving some folks unlimited and others a prescribed number of days. That seems to straddle an almost philosophical issue.
  - pjungwir 11y ago
    If it's possible to abuse it then it's not really unlimited. Why not just decide what is appropriate and put it in the contract, so everyone agrees how much vacation they can take? Also there's no reason everyone has to receive the same amount. Indeed that would be very unusual.
- reitanqild 11y ago
  Another great thing about the country I work in ATM: 5 weeks "paid" vacation each year (of course this means salaries are slightly lower, but nice anyway) Edit: And, you are supposed to use them. Not making sure your employees spend their holiday days can land at least the company if not the employee as well in legal hot water.
- walshemj 11y ago
  I know a guy that was a CTO I the valley( I think he may have reported to Vint at one point) and in the UK and he commented that he got the same amount of work even though the UK firm was ex civil service and had 5 + weeks leave
toomuchtodo 11y ago
I ask for five weeks/year, even if it means I have to forgo some pay. I have yet to be told no. I don't think you've ever experienced the passive aggressiveness that comes with using "unlimited" vacation time.
- eropple 11y ago
  Yup. Before I went into independent consulting, five weeks was a non-negotiable point for me. And I largely went into consulting specifically to take more time off. Life's too short.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Exactly. EXACTLY! I'm not going to lay on my death bed and wish I had another couple lines of code committed.
    - eropple 11y ago
      ...Are you looking? ;) Email's in my profile.
  - cgh 11y ago
    That's why I went into consulting as well: six weeks off a year was priceless to me. But I've recently accepted a permanent role again, with less time off than I've had in years, simply because of the huge salary. It's a little humbling to realize that I had a price, after all.
    - eropple 11y ago
      Six weeks? Next year I'm taking twelve. ;) Maybe more. I've always wanted to aimlessly travel a little. Taking a perm role for a big salary isn't a bad thing, either. That money can be turned into more time off (as long as you don't die first, but that's the gamble, right?). I'd personally rather take it up front while I'm young, but the other way around does work too.
dagw 11y ago
The problem is to my boss "unlimited" might mean 15 days and to me it might mean 4 month. If we come in with wildly different ideas about what is OK, we're both going to end up very unhappy.
- jessedhillon 11y ago
  Or you could have a straightforward discussion with him/her about your expectations. The real issue with unlimited PTO is that many people are so conflict-adverse (except on the internet) that they cannot initiate basic conversations about how much vacation time they think is reasonable. And instead of taking responsibility for communicating their expectations like adults, they stew in resentment against their employer for shifting that responsibility onto them. If your employer balks at your idea of reasonable time off, then you might think about switching employers. But if you balk at the idea of having some input into your employer's expectations of you, then you need to take more responsibility, or move to a company with a less collaborative culture.
  - pjungwir 11y ago
    I agree you and your manager should talk and agree on what number of days is reasonable. That's why you should have a number and not "unlimited".
  - eropple 11y ago
    Why are you positioning this like it's the employee's fault? I've had a gig with "unlimited" vacation time where my boss was very quietly stewing that he thought I was taking too much time. Never said anything to me until two weeks before I left. It is in all cases management's job to set these expectations, and their fault when they're not understood on both ends of things. That's why they're management. (And why "unlimited" policies are stupid.)
  - Retra 11y ago
    The whole reason you have policy and leadership is to handle these kinds of situations though. People are conflict averse, especially when they are not in a position of power over the person they need to talk with.

metamet 11y ago

Or just start off with a proper number of days. Two weeks seems so short, especially if you get sick. 15 days total seems about right.

jenshoop 11y ago
Was just having this conversation -- is there any precedent for offering different teams and/or differing levels of tenure different vacation packages? My husband used to work at Groupon and said it was really challenging to give all entry-level sales people unlimited vacation because they tended to abuse it. However, unlimited vacation may work well for more tenured positions or even for different types of teams (engineering / design?) We thought this might be too tricky to administrate / unfair, but it does seem that it can be a useful and underabused perk for some and a disaster for others.
- _delirium 11y ago
  In big companies, doing it by tenure with the company is common. A typical schedule is something like: start at 2 weeks/yr, and get an extra week/yr for every 5 years you stay with the company, topping out at 6 weeks/yr. That model has run into trouble as people change jobs more, and is uncommon in the Valley where people change jobs even more than that. Some companies have ditched it, while others will negotiate giving you credit for past jobs, e.g. I believe if Exxon hires you away from a 20-year career with BP, they'll often give you equivalent seniority at Exxon for benefits purposes.
- chmullig 11y ago
  It's definitely done. A traditional method is that the longer you've been at a place, the more vacation you earn. Another technique I've seen is to have a divide, eg "VP and above get an extra 5 days per year." Facebook, Google, etc commonly use the contractor technique, where anyone you want to work for you but not give benefits becomes an independent contractor, or works for a vendor. Eg, the cooks in the Facebook kitchens.
  - jenshoop 11y ago
    Yeah - I've seen tiered vacation days based on seniority, but I'm wondering specifically about giving some folks unlimited and others a prescribed number of days. That seems to straddle an almost philosophical issue.
- pjungwir 11y ago
  If it's possible to abuse it then it's not really unlimited. Why not just decide what is appropriate and put it in the contract, so everyone agrees how much vacation they can take? Also there's no reason everyone has to receive the same amount. Indeed that would be very unusual.
reitanqild 11y ago
Another great thing about the country I work in ATM: 5 weeks "paid" vacation each year (of course this means salaries are slightly lower, but nice anyway) Edit: And, you are supposed to use them. Not making sure your employees spend their holiday days can land at least the company if not the employee as well in legal hot water.
walshemj 11y ago
I know a guy that was a CTO I the valley( I think he may have reported to Vint at one point) and in the UK and he commented that he got the same amount of work even though the UK firm was ex civil service and had 5 + weeks leave

toomuchtodo 11y ago

I ask for five weeks/year, even if it means I have to forgo some pay. I have yet to be told no. I don't think you've ever experienced the passive aggressiveness that comes with using "unlimited" vacation time.

eropple 11y ago
Yup. Before I went into independent consulting, five weeks was a non-negotiable point for me. And I largely went into consulting specifically to take more time off. Life's too short.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Exactly. EXACTLY! I'm not going to lay on my death bed and wish I had another couple lines of code committed.
  - eropple 11y ago
    ...Are you looking? ;) Email's in my profile.
- cgh 11y ago
  That's why I went into consulting as well: six weeks off a year was priceless to me. But I've recently accepted a permanent role again, with less time off than I've had in years, simply because of the huge salary. It's a little humbling to realize that I had a price, after all.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Six weeks? Next year I'm taking twelve. ;) Maybe more. I've always wanted to aimlessly travel a little. Taking a perm role for a big salary isn't a bad thing, either. That money can be turned into more time off (as long as you don't die first, but that's the gamble, right?). I'd personally rather take it up front while I'm young, but the other way around does work too.

dagw 11y ago

The problem is to my boss "unlimited" might mean 15 days and to me it might mean 4 month. If we come in with wildly different ideas about what is OK, we're both going to end up very unhappy.

jessedhillon 11y ago
Or you could have a straightforward discussion with him/her about your expectations. The real issue with unlimited PTO is that many people are so conflict-adverse (except on the internet) that they cannot initiate basic conversations about how much vacation time they think is reasonable. And instead of taking responsibility for communicating their expectations like adults, they stew in resentment against their employer for shifting that responsibility onto them. If your employer balks at your idea of reasonable time off, then you might think about switching employers. But if you balk at the idea of having some input into your employer's expectations of you, then you need to take more responsibility, or move to a company with a less collaborative culture.
- pjungwir 11y ago
  I agree you and your manager should talk and agree on what number of days is reasonable. That's why you should have a number and not "unlimited".
- eropple 11y ago
  Why are you positioning this like it's the employee's fault? I've had a gig with "unlimited" vacation time where my boss was very quietly stewing that he thought I was taking too much time. Never said anything to me until two weeks before I left. It is in all cases management's job to set these expectations, and their fault when they're not understood on both ends of things. That's why they're management. (And why "unlimited" policies are stupid.)
- Retra 11y ago
  The whole reason you have policy and leadership is to handle these kinds of situations though. People are conflict averse, especially when they are not in a position of power over the person they need to talk with.