4 ms·

I find it very unsettling that I keep seeing people who say they'd rather have trump as president than Hillary Clinton. I have many issues with her myself, but

by asddubs 11y ago

I find it very unsettling that I keep seeing people who say they'd rather have trump as president than Hillary Clinton. I have many issues with her myself, but she seems to at least have some degree of regard for the consequences for her actions.

coldtea 11y ago
It's not like the president is more than a puppet. Trump can say all the BS he wants on the campaign trail. In reality he might just swing a couple of things a little worse than a "good" president. If he ever gets elected he'll be more or less the same as every other president -- there are far more greater forces in control for a huge country (from established bureaucracies and state organizations, to parties, lobbies and big conglomrates) than some guy in the white house.
- asddubs 11y ago
  Sure, but that goes for Hillary Clinton as well. Is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people on how their citizens feel? And the president does matter quite a bit, even if s/he doesn't flat come up with the laws.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people on how their citizens feel? Well, they elected a black president for 2 terms and I don't see things being much better off for blacks (outside of his close family). In fact, with the recent rise in racism driven police shootings things might even be worse...
    - asddubs 11y ago
      I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        The question was "is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people". My reply was to the effect of: The "message" is not that important. Actual acts matter more. Case in point: even when America elected a black president the actual "message" that eventually prevailed is what we hear in the news about systemic racism being as big as ever, what with all the racially motivated police abuse and shootings etc.
        asddubs 11y ago
        I don't know, I think it's unrealistic to expect a president or a message to make massive changes in a short amont of time, given that other political institutions are far more important in regards to making laws, but that does not mean it's not important. Politics move slowly.
        AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        The message might be "things aren't better yet, but we're done sweeping the issue under the rug". That's not paradise, but it's at least a step.
        coldtea 11y ago
        I read it more like: "Things aren't better yet, but here's a token gesture. A black president. Ain't the American Dream grande?".
- dalke 11y ago
  The president, through the executive branch, has a great amount of power. Quoting the Wikipedia article on executive orders: > executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging 72-hour length strikes on enemies, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes. It goes on to say: > Two extreme examples of an executive order are Franklin Roosevelt's Executive Order 6102 "forbidding the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States" and Executive Order 9066, where Roosevelt delegated military authority to remove any or all people in a military zone (used to target Japanese Americans and German Americans in certain regions). The authority delegated to General John L. DeWitt subsequently paved the way for all Japanese-Americans on the West Coast to be sent to internment camps for the duration of World War II. This "puppet" has much power.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    That power is limited by the fact that the president is not really free to do anything he pleases from what's allowed, but is even before he hits the office tied by tons of deals, negotiations, behind the table alliances, special interests, donors, party loyalty, and, one would imagine, down to pure old blackmail and/or payola in some cases.
    - dalke 11y ago
      Nor are members of Congress 'free to do anything [they] please[]', but are also 'tied by tons of deals ...', making them, by your definition, also 'puppets'. Nor are the Koch brothers, favorite targets of the anti-corporatists, free to do anything they please, but are also limited by many of the constraints you mentioned. If everyone is a puppet, then the term 'puppet' is meaningless.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > If he ever gets elected he'll be more or less the same as every other president On quite a number of issues with high political salience, presidents are very different. So "just like every other President" covers a fairly enormous range.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Any specific examples? And preferable of nearby decades (e.g. not comparing Roosevelt with Bush senior), as what's to be practiced changes a lot with the era and culture at large, aside from whose President.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      George W. Bush and Obama on a vast number of highly salient issues, such as healthcare.
- flycaliguy 11y ago
  He wouldn't have to do anything. All he would have to be is a puppet, a mascot for hate and intolerance towards Muslims. Just having that guy take a seat in the Oval Office would make life significantly worse for everybody of the Muslim faith. Good luck being a brown kid in the playground when a white kid's parent puts a Trump sign on the lawn. At this point I really hope his goal is further success in the entertainment industry. Anything resembling outsider public service has long since disappeared.
hardwaresofton 11y ago
I do not support either candidate (and honestly think the 2 party system is a bit shit), but I would like to point out the fact that she failed to disclose/provide, and basically deleted data that was requested by a court of law (some of which they later retrieved since it seems she didn't actually zero the memory). She's clearly not accountable to the same set of rules that others (maybe just people who aren't rich enough to deftly use/manipulate the system) live by in the US. Maybe it's just afforded to former first ladies, that might be the case too. Unless I'm sorely mistaken: 1. A court requested a private mail server from her 2. She deleted/modified stuff on it, then gave it to them 3. She's not in jail Given 1 and 2, I would normally expect 3 to not be the case (in short, I would expect her to be in jail).
- asddubs 11y ago
  I agree completely 100%. Like I said, I have many issues with her myself, and would not want her to be president. But still better than trump, who is unpredictable and incredibly racist
  - hardwaresofton 11y ago
    Yeah, I definitely agree. It sucks because I consider myself a conservative, and for a while was really hoping that trump was just committing to some super duper long-con troll, by saying the most outrageous/offensive/clearly factually inaccurate things possible. I thought the most interesting angle to him was that he wasn't tied to the money structure (since he's already rich), and could really shake things up (and by shake things up I mean destroy everything with incompetency), but now it's scary to consider someone with his persona (I'd like to credit him with not actually believing/being the things he says) could actually gain traction in a society of reasonable individuals.
- craigvn 11y ago
  And that she is much better option that Trump says a lot.

by asddubs 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

It's not like the president is more than a puppet. Trump can say all the BS he wants on the campaign trail. In reality he might just swing a couple of things a little worse than a "good" president. If he ever gets elected he'll be more or less the same as every other president -- there are far more greater forces in control for a huge country (from established bureaucracies and state organizations, to parties, lobbies and big conglomrates) than some guy in the white house.

asddubs 11y ago
Sure, but that goes for Hillary Clinton as well. Is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people on how their citizens feel? And the president does matter quite a bit, even if s/he doesn't flat come up with the laws.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people on how their citizens feel? Well, they elected a black president for 2 terms and I don't see things being much better off for blacks (outside of his close family). In fact, with the recent rise in racism driven police shootings things might even be worse...
  - asddubs 11y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      The question was "is electing an open racist really the message america wants to send to people". My reply was to the effect of: The "message" is not that important. Actual acts matter more. Case in point: even when America elected a black president the actual "message" that eventually prevailed is what we hear in the news about systemic racism being as big as ever, what with all the racially motivated police abuse and shootings etc.
      - asddubs 11y ago
        I don't know, I think it's unrealistic to expect a president or a message to make massive changes in a short amont of time, given that other political institutions are far more important in regards to making laws, but that does not mean it's not important. Politics move slowly.
      - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        The message might be "things aren't better yet, but we're done sweeping the issue under the rug". That's not paradise, but it's at least a step.
        coldtea 11y ago
        I read it more like: "Things aren't better yet, but here's a token gesture. A black president. Ain't the American Dream grande?".
dalke 11y ago
The president, through the executive branch, has a great amount of power. Quoting the Wikipedia article on executive orders: > executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree legislation will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging 72-hour length strikes on enemies, and in general fine-tuning policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes. It goes on to say: > Two extreme examples of an executive order are Franklin Roosevelt's Executive Order 6102 "forbidding the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States" and Executive Order 9066, where Roosevelt delegated military authority to remove any or all people in a military zone (used to target Japanese Americans and German Americans in certain regions). The authority delegated to General John L. DeWitt subsequently paved the way for all Japanese-Americans on the West Coast to be sent to internment camps for the duration of World War II. This "puppet" has much power.
- coldtea 11y ago
  That power is limited by the fact that the president is not really free to do anything he pleases from what's allowed, but is even before he hits the office tied by tons of deals, negotiations, behind the table alliances, special interests, donors, party loyalty, and, one would imagine, down to pure old blackmail and/or payola in some cases.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Nor are members of Congress 'free to do anything [they] please[]', but are also 'tied by tons of deals ...', making them, by your definition, also 'puppets'. Nor are the Koch brothers, favorite targets of the anti-corporatists, free to do anything they please, but are also limited by many of the constraints you mentioned. If everyone is a puppet, then the term 'puppet' is meaningless.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> If he ever gets elected he'll be more or less the same as every other president On quite a number of issues with high political salience, presidents are very different. So "just like every other President" covers a fairly enormous range.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Any specific examples? And preferable of nearby decades (e.g. not comparing Roosevelt with Bush senior), as what's to be practiced changes a lot with the era and culture at large, aside from whose President.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    George W. Bush and Obama on a vast number of highly salient issues, such as healthcare.
flycaliguy 11y ago
He wouldn't have to do anything. All he would have to be is a puppet, a mascot for hate and intolerance towards Muslims. Just having that guy take a seat in the Oval Office would make life significantly worse for everybody of the Muslim faith. Good luck being a brown kid in the playground when a white kid's parent puts a Trump sign on the lawn. At this point I really hope his goal is further success in the entertainment industry. Anything resembling outsider public service has long since disappeared.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

I do not support either candidate (and honestly think the 2 party system is a bit shit), but I would like to point out the fact that she failed to disclose/provide, and basically deleted data that was requested by a court of law (some of which they later retrieved since it seems she didn't actually zero the memory). She's clearly not accountable to the same set of rules that others (maybe just people who aren't rich enough to deftly use/manipulate the system) live by in the US. Maybe it's just afforded to former first ladies, that might be the case too. Unless I'm sorely mistaken: 1. A court requested a private mail server from her 2. She deleted/modified stuff on it, then gave it to them 3. She's not in jail Given 1 and 2, I would normally expect 3 to not be the case (in short, I would expect her to be in jail).

asddubs 11y ago
I agree completely 100%. Like I said, I have many issues with her myself, and would not want her to be president. But still better than trump, who is unpredictable and incredibly racist
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  Yeah, I definitely agree. It sucks because I consider myself a conservative, and for a while was really hoping that trump was just committing to some super duper long-con troll, by saying the most outrageous/offensive/clearly factually inaccurate things possible. I thought the most interesting angle to him was that he wasn't tied to the money structure (since he's already rich), and could really shake things up (and by shake things up I mean destroy everything with incompetency), but now it's scary to consider someone with his persona (I'd like to credit him with not actually believing/being the things he says) could actually gain traction in a society of reasonable individuals.
craigvn 11y ago
And that she is much better option that Trump says a lot.