4 ms·

"Animals doesn't have any You." How can you possibly know that.

by _nedR 11y ago

snowwrestler 11y ago
Agreed. I think much of the western received wisdom on animal cognition actually comes from religious attitudes of the unique specialness of man and his God-given dominion over the birds and beasts. In general I think we are still adjusting to what science tells us about who "we" are. For example, we know we're animals. As animals, we experience a concept of "self." So why would we assume that no other animals experience a concept of self? We know that the mind arises from the brain. So why would we make a distinction between our concept of self and the "other" parts of the brain? The title of the above article is essentially clickbait, in my opinion. There is no scientific basis for distinguishing between the brain and the self.
dschiptsov 11y ago
It seems like there is a fundamental difference between awareness of a fit back signals from various systems (fear, hunger, cold, pain, etc.) and awareness of the self as an separate entity. Animals obviously have fit back awareness but probably does not have the concept of the self, like toddlers and young children. Self comes with language acquisition, which rewires the brain. That's why almost no one remember their baby days, it seems. Before that language conditioning you are a perfect animal.)
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  "Probably"? You guessed wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals
- _nedR 11y ago
  Oh ok. Looking up what you told me i learnt that what I thought was 1 concept called conciousness, could be defined as 2 separate but related concepts - Qualia and self-awareness. Looking up the wiki article, it seems most animals don't pass the mirror test of self-awareness although few have (such as primates, dolphins, magpies).The mirror-test has been criticized by some as human-centric approach which could give false negatives meaning possibly more animals could be self-aware. Your connecting of awareness and language is interesting. Do you have any sources to look at (articles, books ,etc)? Quite interesting field really. Thanks.
estefan 11y ago
I've read about various research data that suggests animals may very well have a rich internal life which may well indicate they have their own "you" minds (although I can't cite any off the top of my head right now...) I agree that an unqualified sweeping statement - possibly just regurgitated from various religious sources - shouldn't be blindly accepted. That sort of religiously-prescribed attitude also conveniently justifies maltreatment of animals at slaughter, even though research suggests that, e.g. the slitting of an animal's throat causes far greater suffering rather other more modern approaches.

"Animals doesn't have any You." How can you possibly know that.

by _nedR 11y ago

"Animals doesn't have any You." How can you possibly know that.

Agreed. I think much of the western received wisdom on animal cognition actually comes from religious attitudes of the unique specialness of man and his God-given dominion over the birds and beasts. In general I think we are still adjusting to what science tells us about who "we" are. For example, we know we're animals. As animals, we experience a concept of "self." So why would we assume that no other animals experience a concept of self? We know that the mind arises from the brain. So why would we make a distinction between our concept of self and the "other" parts of the brain? The title of the above article is essentially clickbait, in my opinion. There is no scientific basis for distinguishing between the brain and the self.

dschiptsov 11y ago

It seems like there is a fundamental difference between awareness of a fit back signals from various systems (fear, hunger, cold, pain, etc.) and awareness of the self as an separate entity. Animals obviously have fit back awareness but probably does not have the concept of the self, like toddlers and young children. Self comes with language acquisition, which rewires the brain. That's why almost no one remember their baby days, it seems. Before that language conditioning you are a perfect animal.)

PavlovsCat 11y ago
"Probably"? You guessed wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness#Animals
_nedR 11y ago
Oh ok. Looking up what you told me i learnt that what I thought was 1 concept called conciousness, could be defined as 2 separate but related concepts - Qualia and self-awareness. Looking up the wiki article, it seems most animals don't pass the mirror test of self-awareness although few have (such as primates, dolphins, magpies).The mirror-test has been criticized by some as human-centric approach which could give false negatives meaning possibly more animals could be self-aware. Your connecting of awareness and language is interesting. Do you have any sources to look at (articles, books ,etc)? Quite interesting field really. Thanks.

estefan 11y ago

I've read about various research data that suggests animals may very well have a rich internal life which may well indicate they have their own "you" minds (although I can't cite any off the top of my head right now...) I agree that an unqualified sweeping statement - possibly just regurgitated from various religious sources - shouldn't be blindly accepted. That sort of religiously-prescribed attitude also conveniently justifies maltreatment of animals at slaughter, even though research suggests that, e.g. the slitting of an animal's throat causes far greater suffering rather other more modern approaches.