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I don't remember being "trained" to be loud and space-demanding? And I don't remember my wife being "trained" to deal with it. Society is ever changing rubbery

by martiuk 11y ago

I don't remember being "trained" to be loud and space-demanding? And I don't remember my wife being "trained" to deal with it. Society is ever changing rubbery blob that's being melded into different shapes based on what people do, have done or will do. You can't just go ahead and make large generalisations about men or women without any backlash, especially on the internet. I'm sure if I made a comment saying all women should be/are xyz on twitter, I sure as hell would be trolled/attacked; it's what you as a person deals with it.

vegardx 11y ago
You have never been told to "not act like a girl"? I'm genuinely curious, as that would be the first time I've heard that.
- tracker1 11y ago
  "Don't be a wussy." On a serious note, not every gender stereotype is inherently bad. I don't recall ever making a threat against anyone, certainly not doxing them, and don't support the behavior. Some people tend to force a victim mentality, it doesn't mean that they aren't victims, I'm only saying it's so as there are instances where I think we've gone too far. The concept of "trigger warnings" in classrooms just seems absurd. Also, people can't take a joke anymore. Many comics won't even do shows at college campuses anymore. It's kind of a sad statement. As a kid, I was picked on more than most.. and while I feel such behavior shouldn't be encouraged, you can't stop all bad behavior in an instant, and becoming militant about it will only serve to fan the flames. Compare racial tensions in the U.S. vs the U.K. for example. There are times to speak out, and times to suck it up. --- Edit: I realize that this isn't a popular point of view, but if you disagree, reply and add to the conversation, the negative vote isn't supposed to mean you disagree with something.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    It's hard to disagree with a grab bag of vague, warmed-over right-wing talking points. Or rather, it's easy to do, but it doesn't seem worthwhile. If you'd like somebody to take you seriously enough to write a reply, take a point seriously enough to write it out clearly and give some substance to it. Data. Personal experience. Careful, clear reasoning. Anything to demonstrate that you've put some time in. As it is, I don't have any reason to think you have thought about the topic enough to be worth responding to. I'd expect the conversation to go something like this: http://chemicalsinpants.tumblr.com/post/101787704848/the-problem-with-trying-to-talk-about-womens http://chemicalsinpants.tumblr.com/post/101787704848/the-pro... It's enormously convenient for you to tell other people to suck it up, while being apparently unable to endure the discomfort of other people having opinions without whining about it online. It sounds familiar: http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w...
    - tracker1 11y ago
      I've given more thought to it, than is likely deserved. Most of the time, I don't say anything about it. There have only been a handful of times where I was even motivated to express an opinion in the past. I didn't want to dig into this specific case, as it seems to relate to gamergate, which is a lot of bad acting on all sides, especially those making physical threats of violence, and doxing people. Regardless of the merits of any underlying philosophy, such behavior is indefensible. I'm not really right-wing, though do lean that way on a few specific issues. I'm very much of a pragmatic libertarian mindset. I tend to disagree with many on the left and right-wing viewpoints simultaneously. Even on the same issue. It's not just a right wing talking point to say that there's been a lot of over-reaction to a great many things, and some of the actions coming out of our universities currently is pretty backwards. People have every right to be offended by things... they do not have a right to not be offended by anything. One's privilege ends where another's rights begin. My intent was not to derail conversation into a spew of he-said/she-said or even to deteriorate into hyperbole. I was vague because in this case, there's merit. I was only mentioning that in a lot of cases there is not.
      - wpietri 11y ago
        You apparently mean well, but I'm still not sure what kind of response you wanted from people. Even here, you still haven't said anything specific. Everybody can agree that in some cases there is merit and some there is not, because that's true about everything. Everybody can agree that sometimes there's been over-reaction, because that's true about any topic where people have ever reacted. There is no need to say something that is always true. If you're still wondering why people were downvoting, I'd say it was because you made objection-like noises without ever saying anything specific enough to serve as a real objection. If you'd like to object, by all means do it. Or if you'd like to avoid derailing with side issues, then just don't bring them up. But raising them while being vague reads to me like an attempt to undermine without taking responsibility, a way of clouding this issue a bunch of vague and unspecified junk.
wpietri 11y ago
> I don't remember being "trained" I see. Do you remember being potty trained? Do you remember being trained on what things and behaviors are masculine and feminine? Because you were trained, and if you spend time around toddlers you can see them being trained on both. You were also trained in the use of tens of thousands of words. Do you remember being trained on each one of them? I sure don't. Do you remember being trained on how to avoid collision on the sidewalk? On how to use a fork? On how to use your fingers to put things in your mouth? Your memory of being trained on something isn't a good indicator of whether you were trained on it. A relatively small amount of what society trains people on is explicit, formal, and sufficient to cause episodic memory formation. Most of our learning is implicit. > And I don't remember my wife being "trained" Were you married when she was 2? Gender role training starts at least that early. Regardless, if you look you can read plenty of actual stories from adult women on how they have been trained to deal with it, and how they're still being trained in that by being punished for breaking from it. Clementine Ford has experienced exactly that kind of training, so if you wanted to learn something, you could start with her articles. Other good sources are Everyday Sexism, Project Unbreakable, or the autobiography of pretty much any pioneering woman. Madeleine Albright talks explicitly about this and how rising through the man's world of diplomacy forced her to cast off her training and adopt loud and space-demanding behaviors just to be heard.
- csorrell 11y ago
  I find this attitude pretty condescending. A broad gender statement like "boys are trained to be loud and space demanding" isn't honest in representing all boys.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    No broad statement about X represents all X. That's what a broad statement means. Note that your reply here is basically "not all men!" A response that has been examined and found deeply lacking: https://www.google.com/search?q=not+all+men https://www.google.com/search?q=not+all+men
    - 11y ago

by martiuk 11y ago

vegardx 11y ago

You have never been told to "not act like a girl"? I'm genuinely curious, as that would be the first time I've heard that.

tracker1 11y ago
"Don't be a wussy." On a serious note, not every gender stereotype is inherently bad. I don't recall ever making a threat against anyone, certainly not doxing them, and don't support the behavior. Some people tend to force a victim mentality, it doesn't mean that they aren't victims, I'm only saying it's so as there are instances where I think we've gone too far. The concept of "trigger warnings" in classrooms just seems absurd. Also, people can't take a joke anymore. Many comics won't even do shows at college campuses anymore. It's kind of a sad statement. As a kid, I was picked on more than most.. and while I feel such behavior shouldn't be encouraged, you can't stop all bad behavior in an instant, and becoming militant about it will only serve to fan the flames. Compare racial tensions in the U.S. vs the U.K. for example. There are times to speak out, and times to suck it up. --- Edit: I realize that this isn't a popular point of view, but if you disagree, reply and add to the conversation, the negative vote isn't supposed to mean you disagree with something.
- wpietri 11y ago
  It's hard to disagree with a grab bag of vague, warmed-over right-wing talking points. Or rather, it's easy to do, but it doesn't seem worthwhile. If you'd like somebody to take you seriously enough to write a reply, take a point seriously enough to write it out clearly and give some substance to it. Data. Personal experience. Careful, clear reasoning. Anything to demonstrate that you've put some time in. As it is, I don't have any reason to think you have thought about the topic enough to be worth responding to. I'd expect the conversation to go something like this: http://chemicalsinpants.tumblr.com/post/101787704848/the-problem-with-trying-to-talk-about-womens http://chemicalsinpants.tumblr.com/post/101787704848/the-pro... It's enormously convenient for you to tell other people to suck it up, while being apparently unable to endure the discomfort of other people having opinions without whining about it online. It sounds familiar: http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w...
  - tracker1 11y ago
    I've given more thought to it, than is likely deserved. Most of the time, I don't say anything about it. There have only been a handful of times where I was even motivated to express an opinion in the past. I didn't want to dig into this specific case, as it seems to relate to gamergate, which is a lot of bad acting on all sides, especially those making physical threats of violence, and doxing people. Regardless of the merits of any underlying philosophy, such behavior is indefensible. I'm not really right-wing, though do lean that way on a few specific issues. I'm very much of a pragmatic libertarian mindset. I tend to disagree with many on the left and right-wing viewpoints simultaneously. Even on the same issue. It's not just a right wing talking point to say that there's been a lot of over-reaction to a great many things, and some of the actions coming out of our universities currently is pretty backwards. People have every right to be offended by things... they do not have a right to not be offended by anything. One's privilege ends where another's rights begin. My intent was not to derail conversation into a spew of he-said/she-said or even to deteriorate into hyperbole. I was vague because in this case, there's merit. I was only mentioning that in a lot of cases there is not.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      You apparently mean well, but I'm still not sure what kind of response you wanted from people. Even here, you still haven't said anything specific. Everybody can agree that in some cases there is merit and some there is not, because that's true about everything. Everybody can agree that sometimes there's been over-reaction, because that's true about any topic where people have ever reacted. There is no need to say something that is always true. If you're still wondering why people were downvoting, I'd say it was because you made objection-like noises without ever saying anything specific enough to serve as a real objection. If you'd like to object, by all means do it. Or if you'd like to avoid derailing with side issues, then just don't bring them up. But raising them while being vague reads to me like an attempt to undermine without taking responsibility, a way of clouding this issue a bunch of vague and unspecified junk.

wpietri 11y ago

> I don't remember being "trained" I see. Do you remember being potty trained? Do you remember being trained on what things and behaviors are masculine and feminine? Because you were trained, and if you spend time around toddlers you can see them being trained on both. You were also trained in the use of tens of thousands of words. Do you remember being trained on each one of them? I sure don't. Do you remember being trained on how to avoid collision on the sidewalk? On how to use a fork? On how to use your fingers to put things in your mouth? Your memory of being trained on something isn't a good indicator of whether you were trained on it. A relatively small amount of what society trains people on is explicit, formal, and sufficient to cause episodic memory formation. Most of our learning is implicit. > And I don't remember my wife being "trained" Were you married when she was 2? Gender role training starts at least that early. Regardless, if you look you can read plenty of actual stories from adult women on how they have been trained to deal with it, and how they're still being trained in that by being punished for breaking from it. Clementine Ford has experienced exactly that kind of training, so if you wanted to learn something, you could start with her articles. Other good sources are Everyday Sexism, Project Unbreakable, or the autobiography of pretty much any pioneering woman. Madeleine Albright talks explicitly about this and how rising through the man's world of diplomacy forced her to cast off her training and adopt loud and space-demanding behaviors just to be heard.

csorrell 11y ago
I find this attitude pretty condescending. A broad gender statement like "boys are trained to be loud and space demanding" isn't honest in representing all boys.
- wpietri 11y ago
  No broad statement about X represents all X. That's what a broad statement means. Note that your reply here is basically "not all men!" A response that has been examined and found deeply lacking: https://www.google.com/search?q=not+all+men https://www.google.com/search?q=not+all+men
  - 11y ago