6 ms·

I'm getting really afraid of these authoritarian opportunists. Seems much more likely to have an impact on my life than terrorist attacks at least...

TallGuyShort 11y ago
I'm genuinely more afraid of the people who are afraid right now than I am of the people who they think I should be afraid of. The anti-Muslim rhetoric (e.g. yelling "All Muslims are terrorists" at town meetings) scares the hell out of me. How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events?
- cryoshon 11y ago
  On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absolve themselves of what their neighbors and family members are doing, radicalism will never be eliminated. Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road. Disclaimer - this of course doesn't touch on the root causes of extremism, namely the Saudi state and its support of Wahhabism, as well as the overthrowing of several moderate states in the Middle East during the 20th century, as well as the demise of Arab Nationalism (and secularism) and rampant inequality and poverty in many Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle...
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      >Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        Except I'm not advocating genocide. Just pointing out that, if more tolerable solutions don't work, and it does become a perceived choice of 'us' vs 'them', people will choose themselves 10/10 times.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        Murdering millions because millions might die? Forgive me if I can't follow you.
      - methodover 11y ago
        What the hell are you talking about? Harris doesn't advocate for genocide in End of Faith. That's insane.
        Kristine1975 11y ago
        I'm talking about his "if Islamists acquired nuclear weapons, a nuclear first strike against Middle East countries would be the only way to protect the Western Way Of Life."
        yesbabyyes 11y ago
        Interesting. That's strikingly similar to the idea, held by many in the US, that the new nuclear weapons should be utilized against Soviet ASAP, before they had the chance to build their own. Even Bertrand Russell advocated for this. That someone I hold as a model in so much could display such levels of collective madness is one of those things I use to remind myself, of how fickle we are.
    - 11y ago
  - alexqgb 11y ago
    it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor Sure, but why stop there instead of going just a tiny bit deeper and identifying the money layer? You'll find it has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with efforts by the House of Saud to maintain an increasingly dubious hold on worldly power. You'll also find a rat's nest of illiberal interests from nominally liberal countries with an interest in their survival. Thus, the broader desire to deflect attention from the very dark and concentrated heart of this to a much more diffuse and amorphous target like "radical islam". Every time you're tempted to say "radical Islam" try saying "Saudi Arabia" instead. More often than not, you'll find you've hit on the more accurate term.
    - cryoshon 11y ago
      Yes, this is my perspective as well, but for ease of conversation I didn't mention it here-- people get very upset. But take it a step further. Who funds Saudi Arabia, and why? Who backs radical Sunnis, and why? Who backs the radical Shia? Geopolitical problems have many causes and symptoms which can grow into entire pathologies in their own right when they get really out of control, as the West's idiotic power struggle with Russia in the Middle East has.
      - alexqgb 11y ago
        Who funds Saudi Arabia? Nobody "funds" Saudi Arabia. It's a sovereign nation with massive reserves of oil and independent wealth, not some Silicon Valley start up. To the extent that the money comes from somewhere, it comes from all of us, because we need to get to work and gas costs money. The point is that the US has its own set of deeply vested interests in these markets, and they're more than willing to tolerate what the Saudis are doing to underwrite jihadi terrorism and the Wahhabi strain of Islam that animates it if the alternative involves seriously consideration of changes to the way the developed world produces and consumes the energy it depends on.
    - gotchange 11y ago
      Make no mistake Iran is a dangerous state too and Shiite Islam can be weaponized too and could prove much more lethal than Sunni Islam given that religious Shiites usually follow their "Pope" or Supreme Leader blindly. Just imagine an army of 500 mln or so that can be mobilized with a single fiery speech or declaration. Actually, that kind of empire or army is the wildest wet dream that Sunni radicals could have.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  you have reason to be concerned. see: japanese american internment. that actually happened.
- rubyfan 11y ago
  > How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events? It will be much easier with more unchecked authoritarian law in place.

TallGuyShort 11y ago

I'm genuinely more afraid of the people who are afraid right now than I am of the people who they think I should be afraid of. The anti-Muslim rhetoric (e.g. yelling "All Muslims are terrorists" at town meetings) scares the hell out of me. How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events?

cryoshon 11y ago
On one hand, it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor that is funding and directing terror attacks. On the other hand, Muslims are people too, and it is extremely unjust to punish all Muslims for the actions of a radical sect. I think that Europe is in danger of lurching rightward and tempting the return of ethno-religious cleansing. Fascism is not pretty, and the danger for Europeans is real.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Unfortunately, the ugly truth is that communal punishment is the only form of punishment that truly works. Right now, Muslims won't turn in their neighbors and children to the authorities if they're radicalized. It's only when they're more afraid of the consequences of not turning them in that extremism will finally begin to be purged from their communities. As long as Muslims say "they're not REAL Muslims" and absolve themselves of what their neighbors and family members are doing, radicalism will never be eliminated. Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road. Disclaimer - this of course doesn't touch on the root causes of extremism, namely the Saudi state and its support of Wahhabism, as well as the overthrowing of several moderate states in the Middle East during the 20th century, as well as the demise of Arab Nationalism (and secularism) and rampant inequality and poverty in many Arab and Muslim countries. Unfortunately the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle...
  - Kristine1975 11y ago
    >Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation That sounds a bit like Sam Harris advocating for genocide in his book End of Faith: Sure it would be a crime, but otherwise millions would die.
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      Except I'm not advocating genocide. Just pointing out that, if more tolerable solutions don't work, and it does become a perceived choice of 'us' vs 'them', people will choose themselves 10/10 times.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Murdering millions because millions might die? Forgive me if I can't follow you.
    - methodover 11y ago
      What the hell are you talking about? Harris doesn't advocate for genocide in End of Faith. That's insane.
      - Kristine1975 11y ago
        I'm talking about his "if Islamists acquired nuclear weapons, a nuclear first strike against Middle East countries would be the only way to protect the Western Way Of Life."
        yesbabyyes 11y ago
        Interesting. That's strikingly similar to the idea, held by many in the US, that the new nuclear weapons should be utilized against Soviet ASAP, before they had the chance to build their own. Even Bertrand Russell advocated for this. That someone I hold as a model in so much could display such levels of collective madness is one of those things I use to remind myself, of how fickle we are.
  - 11y ago
- alexqgb 11y ago
  it's unquestionable that radical Islam is an aggressor Sure, but why stop there instead of going just a tiny bit deeper and identifying the money layer? You'll find it has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with efforts by the House of Saud to maintain an increasingly dubious hold on worldly power. You'll also find a rat's nest of illiberal interests from nominally liberal countries with an interest in their survival. Thus, the broader desire to deflect attention from the very dark and concentrated heart of this to a much more diffuse and amorphous target like "radical islam". Every time you're tempted to say "radical Islam" try saying "Saudi Arabia" instead. More often than not, you'll find you've hit on the more accurate term.
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    Yes, this is my perspective as well, but for ease of conversation I didn't mention it here-- people get very upset. But take it a step further. Who funds Saudi Arabia, and why? Who backs radical Sunnis, and why? Who backs the radical Shia? Geopolitical problems have many causes and symptoms which can grow into entire pathologies in their own right when they get really out of control, as the West's idiotic power struggle with Russia in the Middle East has.
    - alexqgb 11y ago
      Who funds Saudi Arabia? Nobody "funds" Saudi Arabia. It's a sovereign nation with massive reserves of oil and independent wealth, not some Silicon Valley start up. To the extent that the money comes from somewhere, it comes from all of us, because we need to get to work and gas costs money. The point is that the US has its own set of deeply vested interests in these markets, and they're more than willing to tolerate what the Saudis are doing to underwrite jihadi terrorism and the Wahhabi strain of Islam that animates it if the alternative involves seriously consideration of changes to the way the developed world produces and consumes the energy it depends on.
  - gotchange 11y ago
    Make no mistake Iran is a dangerous state too and Shiite Islam can be weaponized too and could prove much more lethal than Sunni Islam given that religious Shiites usually follow their "Pope" or Supreme Leader blindly. Just imagine an army of 500 mln or so that can be mobilized with a single fiery speech or declaration. Actually, that kind of empire or army is the wildest wet dream that Sunni radicals could have.
beachstartup 11y ago
you have reason to be concerned. see: japanese american internment. that actually happened.
rubyfan 11y ago
> How easily could that attitude be shifted towards any arbitrary group with just one or two tragic events? It will be much easier with more unchecked authoritarian law in place.