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>So yes, it is theoretically possible to eat complete and healthy without meat. It's also theoretically possible to put 3 chop sticks on top of each other, put

by 1457389 11y ago

>So yes, it is theoretically possible to eat complete and healthy without meat. It's also theoretically possible to put 3 chop sticks on top of each other, put them on your head and walk like that to your super market. That doesn't mean you can do it, by adding some beans and nuts to your diet. It's so complicated that some doctors think they can't do it for a long time to themselves. This is such FUD nonsense; pretty deplorable on this forum. There's nothing theoretical about eating "complete and healthy without meat" - people have been living on vegan and vegetarian diets for centuries without ill effects. People have become bodybuilders, MMA fighters while being vegan too, not that the vast majority of humans need to measure their diets by those of elite athletes. As for "so complicated" here is the American Dietetic Association: >It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. [0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

Evgeny 11y ago
[0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 Here's just a few lines from the full text of your link Vegetarians, and particularly vegans, tend to have lower blood levels of EPA and DHA than nonvegetarians (15). Zinc intakes of vegetarians vary with some research showing zinc intakes near recommendations (32) and other research finding zinc intakes of vegetarians significantly below recommendations (29,33). Some studies suggest that vegans who do not consume key sources of iodine, such as iodized salt or sea vegetables, may be at risk for iodine deficiency, because plant-based diets are typically low in iodine (12,35). In the Oxford component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC-Oxford) study, the risk of bone fracture was similar for lacto-ovo-vegetarians and meat eaters, whereas vegans had a 30% higher risk of fracture possibly due to their considerably lower mean calcium intake (38). Low vitamin D intakes (42), low serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels (12), and reduced bone mass (43) have been reported in some vegan and macrobiotic groups who did not use vitamin D supplements or fortified foods. The vitamin B-12 status of some vegetarians is less than adequate due to not regularly consuming reliable sources of vitamin B-12 (12,46,47). No unfortified plant food contains any significant amount of active vitamin B-12. Vegetarian diets are typically rich in folacin, which may mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency, so that vitamin B-12 deficiency may go undetected until after neurological signs and symptoms may be manifest (47). Vegetarians did not meet dietary standard (in at least one country) for: ● vitamin B-12 (in the United Kingdom); ● iron (in the United States, for both vegetarians and omnivores); ● folate (in Germany, though lower rate of deficiency than among omnivores); and ● zinc (in the United Kingdom). Infants of vegetarian mothers appear to have lower cord and plasma DHA than do infants of nonvegetarians (70). Breast milk DHA is lower in vegans and lacto-ovovegetarians than in nonvegetarians (71). Vegetarian athletes may have lower muscle creatine concentration due to low dietary creatine levels (92,93). Some, but not all research suggests that amenorrhea may be more common among vegetarian than nonvegetarian athletes (94,95). Not all aspects of vegetarian diets are associated with reduced risk for heart disease. The higher serum homocysteine levels that have been reported in some vegetarians, apparently due to inadequate vitamin B-12 intake, may increase risk of CVD (111,112) although not all studies support this (113). Although very little data exist on the bone health of vegans, some studies suggest that bone density is lower among vegans compared with nonvegetarians (164,165). Vegetarians can, however, have risk factors for dementia. For example, poor vitamin B-12 status has been linked to an increased risk of dementia apparently due to the hyperhomocysteinemia that is seen with vitamin B-12 deficiency (188). TL;DR: The complexity is there. It is possible to eat a balanced meatless diet, but at the same time it is quite easy to screw it up, and the consequences may show up after a few years and take time to undo.
- erikb 11y ago
  Thanks for adding in the science. I'm simply not a medicine guy so I couldn't do much more than post the TL;DR from memory. All of the listed insufficiencies are quite hard to analyse without blood tests, etc., right? So it is possible to have, e.g., B-12 insufficiency but feel normal, or have low creatine and still perform better in sports than most people would (just not as good as one could be doing).
- 1457389 11y ago
  I guess you've never seen a review article. The whole point is to go through the prevailing literature and rationalize the results, with the end goal of providing the consensus position among experts. Which is to say, cherrypicking "a few lines" of citations is one of the worst ways to interpret a review article which draws from hundreds of separate and often conflicting studies. You will note that I quoted from the abstract, where they clearly state their position. This review draws from 204 studies, 20 of which you have cherrypicked one-line statements from. I don't see the utility in getting a 10% cursory review of a review from a layman who has an axe to grind. Complexity of course exists, but not in the dishonest sense that you implied in your initial comment. What I am telling you, and anyone else that is listening, is that as of 2009 experts in the field have concluded that it is absolutely practical to be healthy on a well planned meatless diet, notional doctor and newspaper strawmen be damned.
  - Evgeny 11y ago
    This review draws from 204 studies, 20 of which you have cherrypicked one-line statements from. There are more studies. How many would be an "enough" number to convince you that it is not trivial to achieve optimal health on completely meatless diet? My point is that there are many vegetarians and vegans in imperfect health and lacking certain vitamins / minerals. To make a blanket statement that they are all doing it wrong would be to fall into "No true vegetarian" fallacy. Complexity of course exists, but not in the dishonest sense that you implied in your initial comment. What I am telling you, and anyone else that is listening, is that as of 2009 experts in the field have concluded that it is absolutely practical to be healthy on a well planned meatless diet, notional doctor and newspaper strawmen be damned. So at least you agree that complexity exists. My disagreement lies in that I do not think it is "absolutely practical" to be healthy on a meatless diet. Your own words "well planned" suggest that there is an expectation for a person to be aware of all potential deficiencies one can experience on a meatless diet, and to have enough nutritional knowledge to plan ones diet around these deficiencies. While possible, it is not something I expect from an average person to do. An average Western person, unfortunately, does not even have enough knowledge in nutrition to keep a healthy weight, which is a much easier task compared to tracking micronutrients. A practical thing would be to include at least some meat (I agree that most people in the west eat more than strictly necessary) and to avoid a lot of overhead, unless one really wants to study the subject.

by 1457389 11y ago

Evgeny 11y ago

[0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 Here's just a few lines from the full text of your link Vegetarians, and particularly vegans, tend to have lower blood levels of EPA and DHA than nonvegetarians (15). Zinc intakes of vegetarians vary with some research showing zinc intakes near recommendations (32) and other research finding zinc intakes of vegetarians significantly below recommendations (29,33). Some studies suggest that vegans who do not consume key sources of iodine, such as iodized salt or sea vegetables, may be at risk for iodine deficiency, because plant-based diets are typically low in iodine (12,35). In the Oxford component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC-Oxford) study, the risk of bone fracture was similar for lacto-ovo-vegetarians and meat eaters, whereas vegans had a 30% higher risk of fracture possibly due to their considerably lower mean calcium intake (38). Low vitamin D intakes (42), low serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels (12), and reduced bone mass (43) have been reported in some vegan and macrobiotic groups who did not use vitamin D supplements or fortified foods. The vitamin B-12 status of some vegetarians is less than adequate due to not regularly consuming reliable sources of vitamin B-12 (12,46,47). No unfortified plant food contains any significant amount of active vitamin B-12. Vegetarian diets are typically rich in folacin, which may mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency, so that vitamin B-12 deficiency may go undetected until after neurological signs and symptoms may be manifest (47). Vegetarians did not meet dietary standard (in at least one country) for: ● vitamin B-12 (in the United Kingdom); ● iron (in the United States, for both vegetarians and omnivores); ● folate (in Germany, though lower rate of deficiency than among omnivores); and ● zinc (in the United Kingdom). Infants of vegetarian mothers appear to have lower cord and plasma DHA than do infants of nonvegetarians (70). Breast milk DHA is lower in vegans and lacto-ovovegetarians than in nonvegetarians (71). Vegetarian athletes may have lower muscle creatine concentration due to low dietary creatine levels (92,93). Some, but not all research suggests that amenorrhea may be more common among vegetarian than nonvegetarian athletes (94,95). Not all aspects of vegetarian diets are associated with reduced risk for heart disease. The higher serum homocysteine levels that have been reported in some vegetarians, apparently due to inadequate vitamin B-12 intake, may increase risk of CVD (111,112) although not all studies support this (113). Although very little data exist on the bone health of vegans, some studies suggest that bone density is lower among vegans compared with nonvegetarians (164,165). Vegetarians can, however, have risk factors for dementia. For example, poor vitamin B-12 status has been linked to an increased risk of dementia apparently due to the hyperhomocysteinemia that is seen with vitamin B-12 deficiency (188). TL;DR: The complexity is there. It is possible to eat a balanced meatless diet, but at the same time it is quite easy to screw it up, and the consequences may show up after a few years and take time to undo.

erikb 11y ago
Thanks for adding in the science. I'm simply not a medicine guy so I couldn't do much more than post the TL;DR from memory. All of the listed insufficiencies are quite hard to analyse without blood tests, etc., right? So it is possible to have, e.g., B-12 insufficiency but feel normal, or have low creatine and still perform better in sports than most people would (just not as good as one could be doing).
1457389 11y ago
I guess you've never seen a review article. The whole point is to go through the prevailing literature and rationalize the results, with the end goal of providing the consensus position among experts. Which is to say, cherrypicking "a few lines" of citations is one of the worst ways to interpret a review article which draws from hundreds of separate and often conflicting studies. You will note that I quoted from the abstract, where they clearly state their position. This review draws from 204 studies, 20 of which you have cherrypicked one-line statements from. I don't see the utility in getting a 10% cursory review of a review from a layman who has an axe to grind. Complexity of course exists, but not in the dishonest sense that you implied in your initial comment. What I am telling you, and anyone else that is listening, is that as of 2009 experts in the field have concluded that it is absolutely practical to be healthy on a well planned meatless diet, notional doctor and newspaper strawmen be damned.
- Evgeny 11y ago
  This review draws from 204 studies, 20 of which you have cherrypicked one-line statements from. There are more studies. How many would be an "enough" number to convince you that it is not trivial to achieve optimal health on completely meatless diet? My point is that there are many vegetarians and vegans in imperfect health and lacking certain vitamins / minerals. To make a blanket statement that they are all doing it wrong would be to fall into "No true vegetarian" fallacy. Complexity of course exists, but not in the dishonest sense that you implied in your initial comment. What I am telling you, and anyone else that is listening, is that as of 2009 experts in the field have concluded that it is absolutely practical to be healthy on a well planned meatless diet, notional doctor and newspaper strawmen be damned. So at least you agree that complexity exists. My disagreement lies in that I do not think it is "absolutely practical" to be healthy on a meatless diet. Your own words "well planned" suggest that there is an expectation for a person to be aware of all potential deficiencies one can experience on a meatless diet, and to have enough nutritional knowledge to plan ones diet around these deficiencies. While possible, it is not something I expect from an average person to do. An average Western person, unfortunately, does not even have enough knowledge in nutrition to keep a healthy weight, which is a much easier task compared to tracking micronutrients. A practical thing would be to include at least some meat (I agree that most people in the west eat more than strictly necessary) and to avoid a lot of overhead, unless one really wants to study the subject.