4 ms·

I would think that if there were a worldwide market for developers, salaries would come down. The Bay area seems to have a positive-feedback loop going on. Hi

by pravda 11y ago

I would think that if there were a worldwide market for developers, salaries would come down. The Bay area seems to have a positive-feedback loop going on. Highly-paid programmers have bid up the cost of housing to astonishing heights. So when companies want to attract more developers, they have to offer even higher salaries, which lead to housing costs being bid up even more.

simoncion 11y ago
> The Bay area seems to have a positive-feedback loop going on. Highly-paid programmers have bid up the cost of housing to astonishing heights. This... is not the primary driver of the insane housing costs in the area. A survey from a year or two back found that tech workers make up ~8% of SF's population. For a variety of reasons, [0] it's nearly impossible to build new housing in San Francisco. I get the impression that the situation is similar in much of the Bay Area. In San Francisco, for the past decade or so for every new unit of housing created, roughly five people have entered the city. [1] Add supply to take care of the backlog and meet expected medium-term demand, and you'll see prices stabilize (and maybe return to less-insane levels). [0] The least of which is Rent Stabilization. :) [1] You could make the argument that "If noone was able to pay the insane prices, the prices wouldn't be insane." This is true, but -frankly- there are lots of very highly-paid people out there. As far as "highly-paid" people go, tech workers really aren't all that highly-paid. :) (I know of decent-to-good engineering sales [2] folks working at bigcos that make between 2 and 10x what I understand mid-level Google engineers to make.) [2] That is, salesmen that also have a technical background, can handle crunchy sales and configuration questions, and can even do real, deep troubleshooting of the product they're selling.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > That is, salesmen that also have a technical background, can handle crunchy sales and configuration questions, and can even do real, deep troubleshooting of the product they're selling. I'm in the wrong business.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > I'm in the wrong business. nod nod If you've both the people and technical skills required to do engineering sales, you're probably seriously limiting your earnings by remaining a programmer.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      If one was so inclined, where would one start looking for these sorts of roles?
      - simoncion 11y ago
        The folks I know of that do this work for large companies that do a lot B2B or enterprise stuff. They effectively lucked into the positions. Most started as programmers but -at some point- got noticed by their managers as having really good people skills, -whether through a stint in regular sales, non-front-line tech support, or just interactions with coworkers in the office- but one went from pure sales to engineering sales because of his side projects and general technical aptitude. Sadly, I forget what these positions are actually called. Best of luck in your hunt! I hope you find and fill such a position and are both happy and richly rewarded in it. :D
        randomname2 11y ago
        Presales, Technical Sales, Sales Engineers
      - strongai 11y ago
        One route would be to explore opportunities for 'pre-sales' roles. Essentially, you'd be the technical go-to person for a customer evaluation of a software/hardware solution. The wider process would be managed by a salesperson, but the evaluation process would be your bag. You need your technical chops plus the people skills to modulate the whole exercise. Edit: terminology
- knughit 11y ago
  Most of SV is not in SF, so SF market isn't much relevant to housing costs in the rest of Valley.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > Most of SV is not in SF... Yep. Obviously. I hope that you didn't think that I thought otherwise. From what I've read about the topic, it seems like a few things are true: * Housing costs are rising radically throughout the Bay Area * No major Bay Area city is building to meet demand in the area * Some Bay Area cities (notably, SF, MV, SJ, and others) are actively impeding new residential construction with a variety of pleasant-sounding excuses It's true that SF's fucked-up housing policy doesn't necessarily mean much for the rest of the Bay Area. However, it's a sad fact that the landowners in much of The Area have -correctly- surmised that they stand to make a shitload of money if they fail to build to meet demand. Fuck housing that's reasonably priced when there are pockets to be lined and fortunes to be made, amirite? :(

by pravda 11y ago

simoncion 11y ago

> The Bay area seems to have a positive-feedback loop going on. Highly-paid programmers have bid up the cost of housing to astonishing heights. This... is not the primary driver of the insane housing costs in the area. A survey from a year or two back found that tech workers make up ~8% of SF's population. For a variety of reasons, [0] it's nearly impossible to build new housing in San Francisco. I get the impression that the situation is similar in much of the Bay Area. In San Francisco, for the past decade or so for every new unit of housing created, roughly five people have entered the city. [1] Add supply to take care of the backlog and meet expected medium-term demand, and you'll see prices stabilize (and maybe return to less-insane levels). [0] The least of which is Rent Stabilization. :) [1] You could make the argument that "If noone was able to pay the insane prices, the prices wouldn't be insane." This is true, but -frankly- there are lots of very highly-paid people out there. As far as "highly-paid" people go, tech workers really aren't all that highly-paid. :) (I know of decent-to-good engineering sales [2] folks working at bigcos that make between 2 and 10x what I understand mid-level Google engineers to make.) [2] That is, salesmen that also have a technical background, can handle crunchy sales and configuration questions, and can even do real, deep troubleshooting of the product they're selling.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> That is, salesmen that also have a technical background, can handle crunchy sales and configuration questions, and can even do real, deep troubleshooting of the product they're selling. I'm in the wrong business.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > I'm in the wrong business. nod nod If you've both the people and technical skills required to do engineering sales, you're probably seriously limiting your earnings by remaining a programmer.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    If one was so inclined, where would one start looking for these sorts of roles?
    - simoncion 11y ago
      The folks I know of that do this work for large companies that do a lot B2B or enterprise stuff. They effectively lucked into the positions. Most started as programmers but -at some point- got noticed by their managers as having really good people skills, -whether through a stint in regular sales, non-front-line tech support, or just interactions with coworkers in the office- but one went from pure sales to engineering sales because of his side projects and general technical aptitude. Sadly, I forget what these positions are actually called. Best of luck in your hunt! I hope you find and fill such a position and are both happy and richly rewarded in it. :D
      - randomname2 11y ago
        Presales, Technical Sales, Sales Engineers
    - strongai 11y ago
      One route would be to explore opportunities for 'pre-sales' roles. Essentially, you'd be the technical go-to person for a customer evaluation of a software/hardware solution. The wider process would be managed by a salesperson, but the evaluation process would be your bag. You need your technical chops plus the people skills to modulate the whole exercise. Edit: terminology
knughit 11y ago
Most of SV is not in SF, so SF market isn't much relevant to housing costs in the rest of Valley.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > Most of SV is not in SF... Yep. Obviously. I hope that you didn't think that I thought otherwise. From what I've read about the topic, it seems like a few things are true: * Housing costs are rising radically throughout the Bay Area * No major Bay Area city is building to meet demand in the area * Some Bay Area cities (notably, SF, MV, SJ, and others) are actively impeding new residential construction with a variety of pleasant-sounding excuses It's true that SF's fucked-up housing policy doesn't necessarily mean much for the rest of the Bay Area. However, it's a sad fact that the landowners in much of The Area have -correctly- surmised that they stand to make a shitload of money if they fail to build to meet demand. Fuck housing that's reasonably priced when there are pockets to be lined and fortunes to be made, amirite? :(