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That graph doesn't look to me like something characterized by prejudice at all. Why would people suddenly become sexist in the computer technology field only, p

by x1798DE 11y ago

That graph doesn't look to me like something characterized by prejudice at all. Why would people suddenly become sexist in the computer technology field only, practically overnight? The article even suggests that the drop started with the boom of the personal computer. That is not inconsistent with the hypothesis that women do better in formal settings, since that inflection point is essentially the moment it became possible for large amounts of people to teach themselves to be a computer programmer. It seems likely that some pre existing bias (either in interest our ability from girls or more likely an interplay of interest and culture) was just amplified when the flood of autodidacts joined the field, not that everyone decided to exclude women just as the field was getting hot.

wpietri 11y ago
My point is that the other three lines are indicative of decreasing prejudice in education, not increasing. The computer-science line is clearly different and why is an interesting topic, but it's not the topic at hand.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  The computer-science line clearly indicates that 'prejudice in education' is not the only and may not be the strongest cause of that trend.
- VLM 11y ago
  A pet theory I've been developing is the decline in the 80s began with a growth in self destructive behavior in the programming employment sector. Eating junk food, caffeinated energy drinks, lack of exercise, lack of good food, lack of sleep, lack of socializing, lack of overtime pay, lack of professionalism, obsessive game play, lack of life balance, lack of decent working environment. Before the 80s programmer culture felt very engineer / mathematician / academic, after the 80s its kinda felt like an introverts weird interpretation of an all night party, every night. Here have a hot pocket and type all night. A culture that prides itself on twinkies and monster energy drinks isn't going to fit the nearly 100% female readership of the typical health magazine. The stereotypical programming environment is nearly unique in the working world, isn't it? Are there any other job markets culturally like programming? If there were, we could compare how the two fields opposition to personal hygiene or opposition to dressing fashionably, or even dressing in clean clothes might not appeal to women at similar rates, for example. I've only found two work places kinda like programming/IT as defined above. One is military mechanic and the other is SOME trading desks at big finance. Both tend a bit male. That's directly on topic. I suppose from an "eating your own (addictive) dogfood" perspective its kinda self inflicted. It would be interesting to look at male/female relations and ratios for programmers at non-traditional employers, perhaps the government or military or maybe academic. I suspect the lifestyle at a unionized state government office is quite a bit different than "standard" programming environment and theorize almost anything would be an improvement WRT women's interest in that workplace. Perhaps addictive behaviors would vary in those circumstances. Surely there must be some HR statistics buried somewhere at a giant corporation or government about % of programmers participating in the corporate alcoholism project by decade, or something like that, WRT trends in addictive personality by decade.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Interesting. One way one could sum up the obsessive-dedication-at-the-expense-of-all-else culture you describe is "macho", which is a reasonable tie to gender.
  - knughit 11y ago
    High finance is as self destructive as the computing habits you describe, and far more boys clubby than computing industry.
- x1798DE 11y ago
  I got the distinct impression that the parent comment was suggesting that there was increasing prejudice against men (or in favor of women), since all the stories are about a conscious effort to cater to women over men.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Yes, exactly. He's complaining about what he perceives as anti-male prejudice. He just didn't say it explicitly. He talked instead about "a few decades ago, when I believe there was far less prejudice". I'm calling attention that rhetorical slight of hand. Reducing prejudice overall sounds like a noble goal, and it's one I share. But the stats I'm familiar with suggest that prejudice has decreased. When prejudice in my favor decreases, it feels a lot like prejudice against me increases, so I can get why he feels that way. But I don't think that personal experience justifies a broad claim of increasing prejudice.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      >When prejudice in my favor decreases, it feels a lot like prejudice against me increases, so I can get why he feels that way. But I don't think that personal experience justifies a broad claim of increasing prejudice. You are leaving out the possibility that real prejudice is decreasing, but that prejudice against males is increasing, just not as much as prejudice against females is decreasing. Not appearance, actual prejudice. The reason for the slight of hand is that being open about the possibility of prejudice against males increasing tends to get a number of quite negative reactions, from the common (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'you have too much privilege to be able to comment on the matter' to the far less tolerated (at least here) insults. As for increasing prejudice against males, there is far more evidence than just personal experience that there is real increases, not just perceived. From the negative effects of lacking male role models in grade school (it doesn't matter why this happens, as it does and thus it creates a negative effect by society impacting young boys) to issues such as biased definitions being used in government reports to cover up or down play male victims of crimes.
      - 11y ago

by x1798DE 11y ago

wpietri 11y ago

My point is that the other three lines are indicative of decreasing prejudice in education, not increasing. The computer-science line is clearly different and why is an interesting topic, but it's not the topic at hand.

shkkmo 11y ago
The computer-science line clearly indicates that 'prejudice in education' is not the only and may not be the strongest cause of that trend.
VLM 11y ago
A pet theory I've been developing is the decline in the 80s began with a growth in self destructive behavior in the programming employment sector. Eating junk food, caffeinated energy drinks, lack of exercise, lack of good food, lack of sleep, lack of socializing, lack of overtime pay, lack of professionalism, obsessive game play, lack of life balance, lack of decent working environment. Before the 80s programmer culture felt very engineer / mathematician / academic, after the 80s its kinda felt like an introverts weird interpretation of an all night party, every night. Here have a hot pocket and type all night. A culture that prides itself on twinkies and monster energy drinks isn't going to fit the nearly 100% female readership of the typical health magazine. The stereotypical programming environment is nearly unique in the working world, isn't it? Are there any other job markets culturally like programming? If there were, we could compare how the two fields opposition to personal hygiene or opposition to dressing fashionably, or even dressing in clean clothes might not appeal to women at similar rates, for example. I've only found two work places kinda like programming/IT as defined above. One is military mechanic and the other is SOME trading desks at big finance. Both tend a bit male. That's directly on topic. I suppose from an "eating your own (addictive) dogfood" perspective its kinda self inflicted. It would be interesting to look at male/female relations and ratios for programmers at non-traditional employers, perhaps the government or military or maybe academic. I suspect the lifestyle at a unionized state government office is quite a bit different than "standard" programming environment and theorize almost anything would be an improvement WRT women's interest in that workplace. Perhaps addictive behaviors would vary in those circumstances. Surely there must be some HR statistics buried somewhere at a giant corporation or government about % of programmers participating in the corporate alcoholism project by decade, or something like that, WRT trends in addictive personality by decade.
- wpietri 11y ago
  Interesting. One way one could sum up the obsessive-dedication-at-the-expense-of-all-else culture you describe is "macho", which is a reasonable tie to gender.
- knughit 11y ago
  High finance is as self destructive as the computing habits you describe, and far more boys clubby than computing industry.
x1798DE 11y ago
I got the distinct impression that the parent comment was suggesting that there was increasing prejudice against men (or in favor of women), since all the stories are about a conscious effort to cater to women over men.
- wpietri 11y ago
  Yes, exactly. He's complaining about what he perceives as anti-male prejudice. He just didn't say it explicitly. He talked instead about "a few decades ago, when I believe there was far less prejudice". I'm calling attention that rhetorical slight of hand. Reducing prejudice overall sounds like a noble goal, and it's one I share. But the stats I'm familiar with suggest that prejudice has decreased. When prejudice in my favor decreases, it feels a lot like prejudice against me increases, so I can get why he feels that way. But I don't think that personal experience justifies a broad claim of increasing prejudice.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >When prejudice in my favor decreases, it feels a lot like prejudice against me increases, so I can get why he feels that way. But I don't think that personal experience justifies a broad claim of increasing prejudice. You are leaving out the possibility that real prejudice is decreasing, but that prejudice against males is increasing, just not as much as prejudice against females is decreasing. Not appearance, actual prejudice. The reason for the slight of hand is that being open about the possibility of prejudice against males increasing tends to get a number of quite negative reactions, from the common (and I'm paraphrasing here) 'you have too much privilege to be able to comment on the matter' to the far less tolerated (at least here) insults. As for increasing prejudice against males, there is far more evidence than just personal experience that there is real increases, not just perceived. From the negative effects of lacking male role models in grade school (it doesn't matter why this happens, as it does and thus it creates a negative effect by society impacting young boys) to issues such as biased definitions being used in government reports to cover up or down play male victims of crimes.
    - 11y ago