4 ms·

Personally (as someone from Europe), I'd say the general reasons we don't have an equivalent tp Google or Silicon Valley or any of that sort of thing are more t

by CM30 11y ago

Personally (as someone from Europe), I'd say the general reasons we don't have an equivalent tp Google or Silicon Valley or any of that sort of thing are more that: 1. European laws are too restrictive. It's especially notable with stuff like the hilariously stupid online tax laws the area has (having to apply different tax rates based on the location of the user rather than the business makes it hugely more complex than it has to be) or the right to be forgotten, but it just feels we're too restrictive here in general. 2. Culture. People in the US seem more ambitious and more willing to risk everyone for the small chance of becoming a millionaire/billionaire at the end of it. People in European countries on the other hand seem to be encouraged to avoid risk and avoid anything that might lead to less job security in the short term. Probably because failure in the US is seen as a minor bump in the road, whereas failure in Europe is seen as the worst possible thing imaginable. 3. Money. Not just in the form of venture capital (though that's a huge reason), but also because US startups tend to pay their employees more, whereas their European equivalents stick to the average local wages. Hence the best programmers, designers and other such people usually either find employment in a more stable company (read, one where there's a work/life balance) or move to the US to work in Silicon Valley. If we want a 'European Google' or European startups in general, we need to become less risk averse, more willing to reward the types of people needed to work in those companies and less obsessed about regulations. Oh, and fix the issues certain areas have with internet connection speeds. The fact that a lot of areas in large cities like London can't get fibre internet and the likes is not helping our tech businesses compete with their US counterparts.

jacquesm 11y ago
Also: Different languages to cater to right from day 1, better job security so less of a drive to be independent, education tends to prepare for a job rather than for running a company or being a founder.
- jryle80 11y ago
  > education tends to prepare for a job rather than for running a company or being a founder. This is an interesting point. Can you elaborate?
djhworld 11y ago
I think a mixture of 2 and 3 are the main reasons "People in European countries on the other hand seem to be encouraged to avoid risk and avoid anything that might lead to less job security in the short term. Hence the best programmers, designers and other such people usually either find employment in a more stable company (read, one where there's a work/life balance) or move to the US to work in Silicon Valley."
mtrimpe 11y ago
> If we want a 'European Google' or European startups in general, we need to become less risk averse, more willing to reward the types of people needed to work in those companies and less obsessed about regulations. I think we don't. Europe just isn't setup for breakaway successes in the way that the US is. And we wouldn't be able to stomach the societal cost even if we were to try. Europe is built to enable a Mittelstand [1] though which also allows for lots of diversity and innovation and is why Germany is still an industrial powerhouse. If Europe wants to compete it should do so on its own terms; except doing so is virtually impossible when companies can claim ownership of their users data because that inevitably leads to the massive centralized monopolies we're seeing now. One thing Europe is good at though is pushing through laws which prevent companies from establishing harmful monopolies though and that is what Europe needs to do. If in addition to "the right to be forgotten" Europe would push through "the right to own your data" and forced companies operating in the EU to return all user data (down to request logs used for analytics) to the user the dynamics of tech industry would change dramatically; and in a positive way for the user too. That will take a while but I think, or hope, it will happen eventually and either way; it will have a much greater chance of success than trying to copy a model that is inherently at odds with a value system developed over dozens of centuries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand
- vixen99 11y ago
  What's the betting that if Microsoft had originated in Europe, it would have been stopped in its tracks? For all its monopoly (draining somewhat now as the world moves on) it's created trillions of dollars of wealth across the world.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Has it? Aren't you making the mistake of comparing the status quo with a copy of it sans Microsoft? Let's say European laws prevented a Microsoft from appearing; computers would still be here, and companies and organizations using them would still need an OS to use them, so there probably would be an increase investment in alternatives. Would the world be worse off? Maybe in some ways, but I doubt it'd be significantly so.
lauritz 11y ago
I agree with everything you say, apart from the general assumption in #1. The examples you provide for European laws being too restrictive are correct imo, and there are more examples of laws that were, in my mind, the poor execution of a good idea (take the EU privacy directive that forces the opt-in for cookie tracking. This has in its execution by Google etc. generally become more of an annoyance than a privacy feature). However, I think the decisions the European Court of Justice makes on these issues could be a chance for Europe. The 'right to be forgotten' and the recent safe harbor decision show--in my opinion--that the ECJ wants to establish a more privacy-focused jurisdiction in Europe. That could be a chance for, say a Google competitor that does not track you through AdWords but, instead, relies on a monthly subscription model (this might not be a very good idea, but you get my point). And when Angela Merkel says that 'too much privacy is bad for business', I disagree, because Europe cannot come to the table one decade late and copy what worked in the Bay Area. If Europe establishes a reputation for a different sort of service that relies on strong encryption, user privacy and the absence of ad-support but rather subscription, I think the European startup world could thrive in serving a market that is currently emerging rather than one that has been there for the better part of a decade.
- jacoplane 11y ago
  I don't think enough users care enough about privacy for there to be a massive market there. If not why didn't more people switch to DuckDuckGo or Diaspora?
  - charlieegan3 11y ago
    "DuckDuckGo has recorded a 600% rise in traffic enjoyed in the wake of the Edward Snowden revelations two years ago." http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/17/duckduckgo-traffic-snowden-revelations http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/17/duckduckgo...
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Well, DuckDuckGo is still not there in search quality. Meaning you need to "fall back" to Google in some cases
ilurk 11y ago
I agree with all of the above but I think you missed another important aspect about money. Engineers in SV are paid bucket loads of money. They can afford to take one year of to travel the world or just work on their own projects. For me that is key. How many people do you know in Europe that can do that? Another thing is in Europe the biggest tech hub is in London. And if you're in London you have to wonder Why am I dealing with this crappy weather when I can move to somewhere where I'm paid 2-3x more and it's summer all year? I know someone who falls along these exact lines and has moved to SV. Although he was already working remotely to a US company.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  > They can afford to take one year of to travel the world or just work on their own projects. Can they? > Why am I dealing with this crappy weather when I can move to somewhere where I'm paid 2-3x more and it's summer all year? Because you don't risk bankruptcy by having a health issue, if you're single it's not a sausage fest, more laid back work (in SF it seems you're bound to stay longer times at the office), greater tourism choices (a short trip away) and probably still cheaper than rent in SF even if we're talking London
  - briandear 11y ago
    Why would you risk bankruptcy? Every company in Valley typically offers great health insurance. London rents are more expensive than San Fran in particular areas and buying property has become nearly impossible at any reasonable price.
  - jryle80 11y ago
    > Because you don't risk bankruptcy by having a health issue, if you're single it's not a sausage fest, more laid back work (in SF it seems you're bound to stay longer times at the office), greater tourism choices (a short trip away) and probably still cheaper than rent in SF even if we're talking London We have another reason right in this very answer: People in SV are willing to take more risk and sacrifice. Sure there are chances one may be bankrupted because of a health issue. Sure there are fewer entertainment choices. Living in SV may not be an ideal lifestyle for many but it has attracted a lot of adventurous mind from all over the world, who together conjure up trailblazing ventures.
DasIch 11y ago
You forget politics. Especially in Germany the hacker scene is very political and fairly well connected. If you're product is essentially spying on people and selling the results (Google, Facebook, ...), you limit the pool of employees, especially good employees, willing to work for you substantially.
sschueller 11y ago
I think what people tend to forget is that there is almost zero worker protection in the United States. Most Europeans prefer a stable life with some luxuries instead of a lottery type life where you may get fired at any point. A lot of people in Europe who say we should be like Silicon Valley only see the money these companies make but not what it took to get there and the toll it takes on the work force.
- codedokode 11y ago
  Software developers are well paid and can easily find a new job if fired. All those laws are made for unqualified and therefore easy to replace workers. And the taxes in US are lower.
- benevol 11y ago
  Very important point right here. The spirit of Silicon Valley generally goes along the lines of "all or nothing". Europe generally sees more value in a sane and balanced life style, where physical/mental health, family, stability, etc. play an important role and living itself is more important than what you will have achieved at the end of your life (in terms of money or material things).
tdkl 11y ago
I'd shorten the list to one significant difference that's somehow avoided - Europe consists of different countries, with different cultures, interests and languages. That's one of the beautiful things in Europe, but let's not pretend it doesn't exist. Forget laws, they can be written, changing culture, interests and financial situations is huge. There is no country called "Europe". But to do business through all European union, there's way more added issues at the beginning then compared to Silicon Valley vs. US (similar culture, values, interests, language) or eastern countries (China, Korea, Russia and their markets).
dogma1138 11y ago
On the anecdotal side most accelerators I've been to in London were filled with non-UK and non-EU founders, the majority would be from the US, Asia and the Middle East, the European founders would often be from Eastern Europe where people are I guess much more accustomed to having to "fight" for it. I also agree about the employment part from both sides (legal and employee mentality) with the exception of highly competitive fields (big 4, high end law firms) you would rarely find many employees willing to work for 12-14 hours a day when need be. Even in the accelerators unless it was a "beer and talk night" the place would pretty much start to clear out around 5, and by 7 there would be no one there. Similar accelerators in Eastern Europe or the Baltic states (as well as out side of the EU) would be quite often still quite full till 11pm and even later. Employment laws in many countries also make it very hard for startups to actually develop, the UK (and to some extend eastern Europe) probably has it's the easiest (which is why I think that and the combination of access to financial institution is why accelerators like London) as small businesses are still exempt from things like mandatory pension. However hiring employees in other European countries may incur heavy financial costs which include pension, healthcare, allot of paid vacation and other benefits, that combined with the cost of actually managing all the HR related stuff and the fact that in some countries firing employees on a permanent contract requires you to involve a court makes it very unattractive for startups. I also agree about the fact that many employees simply do not want that life style, but this has also been some what solidified by employers, as you won't find many if any at employers at all willing to pay a kings ransom for extraordinary talent most roles will have a salary range set to them and while it's possible for some one to make 10% more than their colleague or even in some very rare cases 15-20% (which will usually include other responsibilities) you wont find people making 50% not to mention double what their colleagues do simply based on their apparent talent or what they've demanded during hiring / what was offered at that time.
gozo 11y ago
I feel like I'm being contrarian, but I don't see how your points aren't overshadowed by other factors. 1. Russia, China, India and other markets that to some extent have "their own Google" are completely horrible in terms of running companies. Much more so than Europe. The US is no dream in terms of e.g. declaring taxes either. I think this has more to do with attitude than anything else. US companies simply hire someone to do this. 2. That would explain why people doesn't start companies, if Europe didn't already have many successful technology companies. It offers little explanation why those companies doesn't go on to become "Googles". 3. I do somewhat agree with this one. Because while the technology industry do pay good salaries in Europe startups usually doesn't even though they are in high cost markets. I'm not sure this is actually that different from the US though. There are huge incentives for "the best" programmers to work at Apple/Google/Facebook where they have higher salary and relative job security, especially if the want to keep up with the housing market. I would say that that almost they entire reason why Europe doesn't "have a Google" is because we are part of the US market. All our contenders in the early days used to be domestic. Once we realized that we had to be global US companies bought those that were successful. Skype, for example, could have become a Google if it had been forced to stand on it's own or been acquired by a local company like Ericsson. Rather it was built to be sold and was to Microsoft.

by CM30 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

Also: Different languages to cater to right from day 1, better job security so less of a drive to be independent, education tends to prepare for a job rather than for running a company or being a founder.

jryle80 11y ago
> education tends to prepare for a job rather than for running a company or being a founder. This is an interesting point. Can you elaborate?

djhworld 11y ago

I think a mixture of 2 and 3 are the main reasons "People in European countries on the other hand seem to be encouraged to avoid risk and avoid anything that might lead to less job security in the short term. Hence the best programmers, designers and other such people usually either find employment in a more stable company (read, one where there's a work/life balance) or move to the US to work in Silicon Valley."

mtrimpe 11y ago

> If we want a 'European Google' or European startups in general, we need to become less risk averse, more willing to reward the types of people needed to work in those companies and less obsessed about regulations. I think we don't. Europe just isn't setup for breakaway successes in the way that the US is. And we wouldn't be able to stomach the societal cost even if we were to try. Europe is built to enable a Mittelstand [1] though which also allows for lots of diversity and innovation and is why Germany is still an industrial powerhouse. If Europe wants to compete it should do so on its own terms; except doing so is virtually impossible when companies can claim ownership of their users data because that inevitably leads to the massive centralized monopolies we're seeing now. One thing Europe is good at though is pushing through laws which prevent companies from establishing harmful monopolies though and that is what Europe needs to do. If in addition to "the right to be forgotten" Europe would push through "the right to own your data" and forced companies operating in the EU to return all user data (down to request logs used for analytics) to the user the dynamics of tech industry would change dramatically; and in a positive way for the user too. That will take a while but I think, or hope, it will happen eventually and either way; it will have a much greater chance of success than trying to copy a model that is inherently at odds with a value system developed over dozens of centuries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelstand

vixen99 11y ago
What's the betting that if Microsoft had originated in Europe, it would have been stopped in its tracks? For all its monopoly (draining somewhat now as the world moves on) it's created trillions of dollars of wealth across the world.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Has it? Aren't you making the mistake of comparing the status quo with a copy of it sans Microsoft? Let's say European laws prevented a Microsoft from appearing; computers would still be here, and companies and organizations using them would still need an OS to use them, so there probably would be an increase investment in alternatives. Would the world be worse off? Maybe in some ways, but I doubt it'd be significantly so.

lauritz 11y ago

I agree with everything you say, apart from the general assumption in #1. The examples you provide for European laws being too restrictive are correct imo, and there are more examples of laws that were, in my mind, the poor execution of a good idea (take the EU privacy directive that forces the opt-in for cookie tracking. This has in its execution by Google etc. generally become more of an annoyance than a privacy feature). However, I think the decisions the European Court of Justice makes on these issues could be a chance for Europe. The 'right to be forgotten' and the recent safe harbor decision show--in my opinion--that the ECJ wants to establish a more privacy-focused jurisdiction in Europe. That could be a chance for, say a Google competitor that does not track you through AdWords but, instead, relies on a monthly subscription model (this might not be a very good idea, but you get my point). And when Angela Merkel says that 'too much privacy is bad for business', I disagree, because Europe cannot come to the table one decade late and copy what worked in the Bay Area. If Europe establishes a reputation for a different sort of service that relies on strong encryption, user privacy and the absence of ad-support but rather subscription, I think the European startup world could thrive in serving a market that is currently emerging rather than one that has been there for the better part of a decade.

jacoplane 11y ago
I don't think enough users care enough about privacy for there to be a massive market there. If not why didn't more people switch to DuckDuckGo or Diaspora?
- charlieegan3 11y ago
  "DuckDuckGo has recorded a 600% rise in traffic enjoyed in the wake of the Edward Snowden revelations two years ago." http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/17/duckduckgo-traffic-snowden-revelations http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/17/duckduckgo...
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Well, DuckDuckGo is still not there in search quality. Meaning you need to "fall back" to Google in some cases

ilurk 11y ago

I agree with all of the above but I think you missed another important aspect about money. Engineers in SV are paid bucket loads of money. They can afford to take one year of to travel the world or just work on their own projects. For me that is key. How many people do you know in Europe that can do that? Another thing is in Europe the biggest tech hub is in London. And if you're in London you have to wonder Why am I dealing with this crappy weather when I can move to somewhere where I'm paid 2-3x more and it's summer all year? I know someone who falls along these exact lines and has moved to SV. Although he was already working remotely to a US company.

raverbashing 11y ago
> They can afford to take one year of to travel the world or just work on their own projects. Can they? > Why am I dealing with this crappy weather when I can move to somewhere where I'm paid 2-3x more and it's summer all year? Because you don't risk bankruptcy by having a health issue, if you're single it's not a sausage fest, more laid back work (in SF it seems you're bound to stay longer times at the office), greater tourism choices (a short trip away) and probably still cheaper than rent in SF even if we're talking London
- briandear 11y ago
  Why would you risk bankruptcy? Every company in Valley typically offers great health insurance. London rents are more expensive than San Fran in particular areas and buying property has become nearly impossible at any reasonable price.
- jryle80 11y ago
  > Because you don't risk bankruptcy by having a health issue, if you're single it's not a sausage fest, more laid back work (in SF it seems you're bound to stay longer times at the office), greater tourism choices (a short trip away) and probably still cheaper than rent in SF even if we're talking London We have another reason right in this very answer: People in SV are willing to take more risk and sacrifice. Sure there are chances one may be bankrupted because of a health issue. Sure there are fewer entertainment choices. Living in SV may not be an ideal lifestyle for many but it has attracted a lot of adventurous mind from all over the world, who together conjure up trailblazing ventures.

DasIch 11y ago

You forget politics. Especially in Germany the hacker scene is very political and fairly well connected. If you're product is essentially spying on people and selling the results (Google, Facebook, ...), you limit the pool of employees, especially good employees, willing to work for you substantially.

sschueller 11y ago

I think what people tend to forget is that there is almost zero worker protection in the United States. Most Europeans prefer a stable life with some luxuries instead of a lottery type life where you may get fired at any point. A lot of people in Europe who say we should be like Silicon Valley only see the money these companies make but not what it took to get there and the toll it takes on the work force.

codedokode 11y ago
Software developers are well paid and can easily find a new job if fired. All those laws are made for unqualified and therefore easy to replace workers. And the taxes in US are lower.
benevol 11y ago
Very important point right here. The spirit of Silicon Valley generally goes along the lines of "all or nothing". Europe generally sees more value in a sane and balanced life style, where physical/mental health, family, stability, etc. play an important role and living itself is more important than what you will have achieved at the end of your life (in terms of money or material things).

tdkl 11y ago

I'd shorten the list to one significant difference that's somehow avoided - Europe consists of different countries, with different cultures, interests and languages. That's one of the beautiful things in Europe, but let's not pretend it doesn't exist. Forget laws, they can be written, changing culture, interests and financial situations is huge. There is no country called "Europe". But to do business through all European union, there's way more added issues at the beginning then compared to Silicon Valley vs. US (similar culture, values, interests, language) or eastern countries (China, Korea, Russia and their markets).

dogma1138 11y ago

On the anecdotal side most accelerators I've been to in London were filled with non-UK and non-EU founders, the majority would be from the US, Asia and the Middle East, the European founders would often be from Eastern Europe where people are I guess much more accustomed to having to "fight" for it. I also agree about the employment part from both sides (legal and employee mentality) with the exception of highly competitive fields (big 4, high end law firms) you would rarely find many employees willing to work for 12-14 hours a day when need be. Even in the accelerators unless it was a "beer and talk night" the place would pretty much start to clear out around 5, and by 7 there would be no one there. Similar accelerators in Eastern Europe or the Baltic states (as well as out side of the EU) would be quite often still quite full till 11pm and even later. Employment laws in many countries also make it very hard for startups to actually develop, the UK (and to some extend eastern Europe) probably has it's the easiest (which is why I think that and the combination of access to financial institution is why accelerators like London) as small businesses are still exempt from things like mandatory pension. However hiring employees in other European countries may incur heavy financial costs which include pension, healthcare, allot of paid vacation and other benefits, that combined with the cost of actually managing all the HR related stuff and the fact that in some countries firing employees on a permanent contract requires you to involve a court makes it very unattractive for startups. I also agree about the fact that many employees simply do not want that life style, but this has also been some what solidified by employers, as you won't find many if any at employers at all willing to pay a kings ransom for extraordinary talent most roles will have a salary range set to them and while it's possible for some one to make 10% more than their colleague or even in some very rare cases 15-20% (which will usually include other responsibilities) you wont find people making 50% not to mention double what their colleagues do simply based on their apparent talent or what they've demanded during hiring / what was offered at that time.

gozo 11y ago

I feel like I'm being contrarian, but I don't see how your points aren't overshadowed by other factors. 1. Russia, China, India and other markets that to some extent have "their own Google" are completely horrible in terms of running companies. Much more so than Europe. The US is no dream in terms of e.g. declaring taxes either. I think this has more to do with attitude than anything else. US companies simply hire someone to do this. 2. That would explain why people doesn't start companies, if Europe didn't already have many successful technology companies. It offers little explanation why those companies doesn't go on to become "Googles". 3. I do somewhat agree with this one. Because while the technology industry do pay good salaries in Europe startups usually doesn't even though they are in high cost markets. I'm not sure this is actually that different from the US though. There are huge incentives for "the best" programmers to work at Apple/Google/Facebook where they have higher salary and relative job security, especially if the want to keep up with the housing market. I would say that that almost they entire reason why Europe doesn't "have a Google" is because we are part of the US market. All our contenders in the early days used to be domestic. Once we realized that we had to be global US companies bought those that were successful. Skype, for example, could have become a Google if it had been forced to stand on it's own or been acquired by a local company like Ericsson. Rather it was built to be sold and was to Microsoft.