6 ms·

Ignition: An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants (1972) [pdf]

110 points by rfreytag 11y ago

monochromatic 11y ago
This is a great book that lots of people should read, and it is out of print... however, this is a copyrighted work. It probably shouldn't be shared like this.
- HarryHirsch 11y ago
  Heh. Here's a story. The book is long out of print but sought after - the non-microfilm version from Rutgers University Press retails for several hundred dollars in the second-hand trade. You call up Rutgers, and RUP tells you that they have no idea who owns the publishing rights. Copyright protection lasts far too long, and something really needs to be done about orphan works.
  - monochromatic 11y ago
    Totally agree, the length of copyright protection is absurd. Doesn't mean we should use HN to pirate stuff though.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Yes, yes we should. When HN even has a feature made to bypass paywalls, it's absurd to then subscribe to a strict legalistic position which provides no benefit to anyone.
      - monochromatic 11y ago
        HN has a feature for bypassing paywalls? Well, it could at least be argued (I don't know how persuasively) that that isn't copyright infringement. This pretty clearly is.
        ethbro 11y ago
        Isn't this more or less what the DMCA safe harbor was actually intended for? If a website that is not primarily engaged in massive copyright violation posts a link to a questionably copywritten work, then the onus is on the rights holder to notify. It would seem like cases where the rights holder is unknown or has lost interest in the work (aka ophaned works) should be tailor made for this. HN has safe harbor, the rights holder has the possibility of protecting their work if they choose, and the public has access to a work that would otherwise be buried in a strictly pre-legally cleared system.
        monochromatic 11y ago
        I'm not suggesting that HN should get sued over this, so the safe harbor seems irrelevant. I'm saying that we shouldn't post things like this.
        stickfigure 11y ago
        Then consider this a form of civil disobedience.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      For all we know, the copyright holders gave the people at sciencemadness.org permission to distribute this PDF freely.
      - monochromatic 11y ago
        That's a little convenient.
        mikeash 11y ago
        It's true, though, right? Where does our responsibility lie in determining whether something is legitimate or not? There are cases where it's obvious, and cases where it's not. What's the limit of due diligence for a casual reader?
        monochromatic 11y ago
        There's no reason whatsoever to think it's legitimate. Whatever the limit of due diligence might be, this isn't even close.
        mikeash 11y ago
        It's available and it hasn't been taken down, that's some indication it might be legitimate. I agree that it's unlikely. But it's possible, and certainly much more ambiguous than grabbing a torrent off some ad-laden site for a TV show you can buy on iTunes.
pavelrub 11y ago
This is one of the books that Elon Musk recommended (http://www.adweek.com/galleycat/the-science-fiction-books-that-inspired-elon-musk/68213?red=as http://www.adweek.com/galleycat/the-science-fiction-books-th...)
rfreytag 11y ago
This submission came from smaddox's comment on an earlier thread about hydrofluoric acid: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10683134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10683134 Thank you to the editor who massively improved on my submission title. :-)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
WalterBright 11y ago
It's going for two grand on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Ignition-informal-history-liquid-propellants/dp/0813507251/ http://www.amazon.com/Ignition-informal-history-liquid-prope... Yikes!
- monochromatic 11y ago
  Maybe an example of this: http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
  - jonah 11y ago
    It's actually just rare and out of print.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Maybe yes, because it's now $14K. Perhaps someone just bought one at two grand ;) Or maybe it's just the hits. Edit: OK, there are two sellers at ~$2K and ~$3K. I wonder why Amazon points to the $14K one by default.
- microDude 11y ago
  I know, after reading the first 20 pages I decided I wanted to buy a real copy for my father as a Christmas gift.
  - RyJones 11y ago
    I'd like to buy a copy because so many pages are missing in this PDF
    - nkurz 11y ago
      I thought this too at first, but it turned out to be just a problem with my browser's rendering (Opera). Saving it to disk and viewing with Preview on Mac produced the missing pages. If that doesn't work, there's a different PDF available here that might produce better results (facing pages rather than single): http://web.mit.edu/zoz/Public/ebook_Ignition_An_informal_history_of_liquid_rocket_propellants_John_D_Clark.pdf http://web.mit.edu/zoz/Public/ebook_Ignition_An_informal_his...
CarVac 11y ago
I love that the introduction is by Isaac Asimov.
vermontdevil 11y ago
I read the book from the library. Great read though can be a bit technical with chemistry. These chemical engineers were really courageous and inquisitive. They have tried so many different combinations to find the right propellant. I would laugh thinking the book is worth more than my iPhone. If I stole the book, I doubt I would find a buyer for the price you see on Amazon but for sure I would be asked to reimburse the library for that price!
vpribish 11y ago
This is a really fun and informative read for the history, the chemistry, the humor, and for the depiction of the arc of a technology from obscurity - to frantic exploitation - to exhaustion. The latter most of all.
nkurz 11y ago
Apparently in the same way that computer scientists worry about "bugs", rocket scientists have to be concerned with "rats": But here an unexpected complication showed up. The peroxide was to be stored aboard airplane carriers in aluminum tanks. And then suddenly it was discovered that trace quantities of chlorides in peroxide made the latter peculiarly corrosive to aluminum. How to keep traces of chloride out of anything when you're sitting on an ocean of salt water was a problem whose solution was not entirely obvious. And there was always the problem of gross pollution. Say that somebody dropped (accidentally or otherwise) a greasy wrench into 10,000 gallons of 90 percent peroxide in the hold of the ship. What would happen—and would the ship survive? This question so worried people that one functionary in the Rocket Branch (safely in Washington) who had apparently been reading Captain Horatio Horn- blower, wanted us at NARTS to build ourselves a 10,000- gallon tank, fill it up with 90 percent peroxide, and then drop into it—so help me God—one rat. (He didn't specify the sex of the rat.) It was with considerable difficulty that our chief managed to get him to scale his order down to one test tube of peroxide and one quarter inch of rat tail. Brilliant short book, thanks for posting!
hans 11y ago
Another great book on this subject: The Nazi Rocketeers by dennis piszkeiwicz
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

110 points by rfreytag 11y ago

This is a great book that lots of people should read, and it is out of print... however, this is a copyrighted work. It probably shouldn't be shared like this.

HarryHirsch 11y ago
Heh. Here's a story. The book is long out of print but sought after - the non-microfilm version from Rutgers University Press retails for several hundred dollars in the second-hand trade. You call up Rutgers, and RUP tells you that they have no idea who owns the publishing rights. Copyright protection lasts far too long, and something really needs to be done about orphan works.
- monochromatic 11y ago
  Totally agree, the length of copyright protection is absurd. Doesn't mean we should use HN to pirate stuff though.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Yes, yes we should. When HN even has a feature made to bypass paywalls, it's absurd to then subscribe to a strict legalistic position which provides no benefit to anyone.
    - monochromatic 11y ago
      HN has a feature for bypassing paywalls? Well, it could at least be argued (I don't know how persuasively) that that isn't copyright infringement. This pretty clearly is.
      - ethbro 11y ago
        Isn't this more or less what the DMCA safe harbor was actually intended for? If a website that is not primarily engaged in massive copyright violation posts a link to a questionably copywritten work, then the onus is on the rights holder to notify. It would seem like cases where the rights holder is unknown or has lost interest in the work (aka ophaned works) should be tailor made for this. HN has safe harbor, the rights holder has the possibility of protecting their work if they choose, and the public has access to a work that would otherwise be buried in a strictly pre-legally cleared system.
        monochromatic 11y ago
        I'm not suggesting that HN should get sued over this, so the safe harbor seems irrelevant. I'm saying that we shouldn't post things like this.
      - stickfigure 11y ago
        Then consider this a form of civil disobedience.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    For all we know, the copyright holders gave the people at sciencemadness.org permission to distribute this PDF freely.
    - monochromatic 11y ago
      That's a little convenient.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        It's true, though, right? Where does our responsibility lie in determining whether something is legitimate or not? There are cases where it's obvious, and cases where it's not. What's the limit of due diligence for a casual reader?
        monochromatic 11y ago
        There's no reason whatsoever to think it's legitimate. Whatever the limit of due diligence might be, this isn't even close.
        mikeash 11y ago
        It's available and it hasn't been taken down, that's some indication it might be legitimate. I agree that it's unlikely. But it's possible, and certainly much more ambiguous than grabbing a torrent off some ad-laden site for a TV show you can buy on iTunes.

pavelrub 11y ago

This is one of the books that Elon Musk recommended (http://www.adweek.com/galleycat/the-science-fiction-books-that-inspired-elon-musk/68213?red=as http://www.adweek.com/galleycat/the-science-fiction-books-th...)

rfreytag 11y ago

This submission came from smaddox's comment on an earlier thread about hydrofluoric acid: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10683134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10683134 Thank you to the editor who massively improved on my submission title. :-)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

WalterBright 11y ago

It's going for two grand on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Ignition-informal-history-liquid-propellants/dp/0813507251/ http://www.amazon.com/Ignition-informal-history-liquid-prope... Yikes!

monochromatic 11y ago
Maybe an example of this: http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
- jonah 11y ago
  It's actually just rare and out of print.
- mirimir 11y ago
  Maybe yes, because it's now $14K. Perhaps someone just bought one at two grand ;) Or maybe it's just the hits. Edit: OK, there are two sellers at ~$2K and ~$3K. I wonder why Amazon points to the $14K one by default.
microDude 11y ago
I know, after reading the first 20 pages I decided I wanted to buy a real copy for my father as a Christmas gift.
- RyJones 11y ago
  I'd like to buy a copy because so many pages are missing in this PDF
  - nkurz 11y ago
    I thought this too at first, but it turned out to be just a problem with my browser's rendering (Opera). Saving it to disk and viewing with Preview on Mac produced the missing pages. If that doesn't work, there's a different PDF available here that might produce better results (facing pages rather than single): http://web.mit.edu/zoz/Public/ebook_Ignition_An_informal_history_of_liquid_rocket_propellants_John_D_Clark.pdf http://web.mit.edu/zoz/Public/ebook_Ignition_An_informal_his...

CarVac 11y ago

I love that the introduction is by Isaac Asimov.

vermontdevil 11y ago

I read the book from the library. Great read though can be a bit technical with chemistry. These chemical engineers were really courageous and inquisitive. They have tried so many different combinations to find the right propellant. I would laugh thinking the book is worth more than my iPhone. If I stole the book, I doubt I would find a buyer for the price you see on Amazon but for sure I would be asked to reimburse the library for that price!

vpribish 11y ago

This is a really fun and informative read for the history, the chemistry, the humor, and for the depiction of the arc of a technology from obscurity - to frantic exploitation - to exhaustion. The latter most of all.

nkurz 11y ago

Apparently in the same way that computer scientists worry about "bugs", rocket scientists have to be concerned with "rats": But here an unexpected complication showed up. The peroxide was to be stored aboard airplane carriers in aluminum tanks. And then suddenly it was discovered that trace quantities of chlorides in peroxide made the latter peculiarly corrosive to aluminum. How to keep traces of chloride out of anything when you're sitting on an ocean of salt water was a problem whose solution was not entirely obvious. And there was always the problem of gross pollution. Say that somebody dropped (accidentally or otherwise) a greasy wrench into 10,000 gallons of 90 percent peroxide in the hold of the ship. What would happen—and would the ship survive? This question so worried people that one functionary in the Rocket Branch (safely in Washington) who had apparently been reading Captain Horatio Horn- blower, wanted us at NARTS to build ourselves a 10,000- gallon tank, fill it up with 90 percent peroxide, and then drop into it—so help me God—one rat. (He didn't specify the sex of the rat.) It was with considerable difficulty that our chief managed to get him to scale his order down to one test tube of peroxide and one quarter inch of rat tail. Brilliant short book, thanks for posting!

hans 11y ago

Another great book on this subject: The Nazi Rocketeers by dennis piszkeiwicz

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]