7 ms·

Porsche's Electric Mission E Is Poised to Compete with Tesla's Model S

35 points by dmmalam 11y ago

johnloeber 11y ago
> Porsche's Mission E is poised to compete with Tesla's Model S No it isn't. Tesla's Model S is in production, and has been for two years. Porsche's Mission E isn't even near production yet. Even the details about the production car's final range and horsepower seem to be tentative. The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger, which apparently isn't finished yet.
- scurvy 11y ago
  > The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger, which apparently isn't finished yet. The Mission E looks much, much better than any Tesla model.
  - Cieplak 11y ago
    Much better. However, I suspect they will change the front bonnet design significantly in order to comply with pedestrian safety standards. Which would be very unfortunate for the aesthetics of the vehicle.
    - S_A_P 11y ago
      Hopefully autonomous safety features will allow the relaxation of the aesthetic robbing requirements.
  - dnautics 11y ago
    The Mission E's aesthetic appeals to a certain class of person that would buy a luxury sports model. The Tesla appeals to a different class of person who is purchasing a car for different symbolic reasons. Initially, the Toyota Prius 2nd Gen was panned for its ugly look, but ultimately its distinctiveness became a marketing point as it became a status symbol of its own right - as evidenced by Honda copying it in its 2nd generation Insight. The subjective qualities that define the 'desirable look' of the Misson E may be rejected by some segments of the Tesla market.
    - Avshalom 11y ago
      I feel like Tesla's Slighty-More-Practical-Astin design is pretty solidly aimed at the the same crowd as Porsche's Slightly-More-Practical-911 design.
      - joshu 11y ago
        Astin?
        btreesOfSpring 11y ago
        you can probably assume aston martin here.
        ams6110 11y ago
        That look is decidedly generic these days. Ford copied it on the Fusion, a solidly middle-class family car. The 911 look is classic, distinctive, and timeless.
        joshu 11y ago
        i think you are confusing the front grille with the entire look. they do not look more alike than other random cars. modern 911s only vaguely hint at the originals. the size difference alone is enormous. http://a3.files.airows.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTMwMDU4Njg3NTYwNzU1ODQz.jpg http://a3.files.airows.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1....
        nl 11y ago
        The Mission E looks good. 911 styling cues aren't the reason though - see the Panamera for how bad the 'turn the 911 into a sports sedan' can look.
        scurvy 11y ago
        Indeed. I see a Tesla Model S and instantly think "run of the mill Hyundai Genesis." My loins don't tingle nor do I think "that's one hot car." The Model S looks have never been wonderful, nor distinctive. It's a great car. It's just not a great looker. The Porsche is a looker. We'll have to wait and see how the finished product performs.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Mission E is an ugly ugly car. It's clearly trying to hard to look different, but ends up looking more like a cheap plastic toy than a car.
- threeseed 11y ago
  > No it isn't. Hence the word "poised" as in it will at some point compete with Tesla. Given that (a) the Tesla S has a pretty cheap looking interior, (b) Porsche is a premium brand with exceptional design sensibilities and (c) Tesla has limited distribution channels I suspect Porsche will easily be a match for Tesla. When Porsche enters new markets they usually do so with very solid products e.g. Cayenne, Macan.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Can't wait to see Porsche's charging network. It's going to be as extensive as Tesla's Superchargers, right?
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      They might use that infrastructure which will allow tesla to become what better-place failed to do - a service provider. Supercharge is free for tesla owners afaik why can't they charge other ev owners, this seems to be both lucrative and savvy as it will solidify their tech as the standard which will give them the edge since they control its life cycle.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Yeah the interior of the tesla is the biggest gripe most people have with it. There was a tesla promo in the business center i work at and I got finally a chance to sit in one and considering the 100k> GBP price tag it has in the uk it didn't feel like a luxury car at all. Even tho the display model had their best interior the leather didn't feel as good as entry level German cars and the nice carbon fiber inlaid dashboard just felt cheap and squeaky. The interior of the tesla is to me pretty much the same quality of most higher end sedans like the accord and the Passat not anywhere close to luxury car levels.
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
- thomyorkie 11y ago
  > The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger And by 2019 Tesla probably will have something similar.
intopieces 11y ago
>They’re working on an 800-volt charger that will power the car up to 80 percent in just 15 minutes, half the time it takes the Tesla. Not another charger! I suppose the Porsche market isn't filled with range-anxious commuters, though.
- threeseed 11y ago
  It could be more than the Porsche market though. It is part of the Volkswagen group which means the combination of Porsche, VW, Audi could put some market weight behind the charging implementation.
vvanders 11y ago
Nope. Tesla current beats them on almost all marks: 310 Mile range: This is using the UK cycle which is commonly compared to EPA cycle(which is lower). Using UK to UK you get: - ~320mi range P90D / P90DL - 350mi range 90D 3.5s 0-60: - P90DL: 2.8s - P85D/90D: 3.2s Price: Rumors are in the ~200k range which again Tesla can beat(you can get an 85D for half that with better range and 0-60 which is close). As for the 15min charging. We haven't seen it in production at all. Also the fact that they're going with 800 VDC pack means there's a good chance it won't work with any other DCFC standard(CHAdeMO, SAE Combo, SuperCharger) without a step-up transformer so you'll be limited to only Porsche's chargers. Also you can buy a Tesla today, not years down the line. I really don't understand where all this "Porsche is going to beat Tesla" press comes from, it's like Apple claiming they were the first company to support Open Source, there's nothing to back it up.
- bobbles 11y ago
  I'm sure there are plenty of people that would look at a functionally reduced electric car because it is a porche, its coming up on 90 years worth of fans building up
- ams6110 11y ago
  Porsche have an established worldwide dealer and service network. That will give some confidence to certain buyers. If I wanted a Tesla (I don't) I would not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced. I know where the nearest Porsche dealership is, by contrast.
  - dmd 11y ago
    If I type "Tesla" into Google, both questions are answered - "by Tesla. 4 miles away, in Watertown, Massachusetts." By contrast, if I type "Porsche" into Google, I get a huge list of resellers and dealers. I have no idea which ones are honest, dishonest, which ones do repair, which ones only sell used, which ones I'm going to have to haggle at...
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
    > I would not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced. You are on a technology news site, and you are seriously arguing against buying a Tesla because you don't know where their nearest store are, despite this being trivially easy to look up on the internet? Here. You buy them here: https://www.teslamotors.com/ https://www.teslamotors.com/
rsync 11y ago
The real news here is not which car has the best 0-60 time or +/- 5% in the range department ... it's that there is now more than one car for sale. There is a certain class/mindset/attitude of car buyer that even if they don't have a tesla now is just never going to buy a ICE car again. It doesn't matter the price or the specs or the this or the that - the ship has sailed and history has moved on. The problem is, there were no options other than the Tesla. Or at least, no options that weren't, essentially, onion-esque parodies of what electric cars are (I'm looking at you, super lame mercedes B-class). So it is great, great, great news that there will be more than one car to choose from.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > it's that there is now more than one car for sale. What? The target year for this planned Porsche car is 2019.
- Corrado 11y ago
  I completely agree with you! I have tasted the Tesla fruit and have absolutely no desire to have anything to do with an ICE car ever again. I'm a long time Porsche lover and I used to dream of owning a 911 in the flesh. Now, not so much. In fact, on the same day that I drove the Tesla I visited a Porsche/Audi dealership and found myself not even caring about their cars at all. I found them bulky, small, and uncomfortable. It was truly a sad day for me, until the Tesla guy said "You wanna drive one?" That changed my life. :)
ableal 11y ago
> The motor (or motors, Porsche hasn’t said) One of these days I'd like to know why there are no (well known) one-motor-per-wheel proposals. So much fun to be had with trajectory control ...
- kinofcain 11y ago
  Hub motors are heavy and unsprung weight is bad. If you're going inboard with driveshafts you might as well put a differential in there and be able to put more than 50% (2wd) or 25%(4wd) of power to one wheel. Putting a motor in each wheel means you can only direct power around by reducing it.
rebootthesystem 11y ago
From my perspective the elephant in the room is something Tesla is unlikely to be able to compete against, particularly as more manufacturers come online with viable full range electric cars: Constant innovation. What I mean by that is car companies are geared-up and used to introducing new and seriously updated models every year or two. They go through many iterations and designs, have hits and misses. And they sell millions of cars per year in the process. In another year or two the Model S will feel, well, dated and old. I have to admit having had this very thought. I've been considering purchasing one for the past year and was going to make a decision in January. And I keep running in circles with multiple arguments in my head. First there's the "this look is getting old" argument. Sorry, superficial, but, hey, that's the way it works. This this wasn't a real-life criteria we all use to buy cars they would still look the way they did twenty years ago because nobody would care. Then there's the interior. As others have pointed out, not the best. I'll just leave it at that. I find my self less interested in a car who's outward and interior design is already several years old. I am not interested in a Tesla because I am a fan boy. I am not. I would like an electric car because I have a nice solar infrastructure at home that I designed to be able to support two electric cars. I also want to stop burning fossil fuel for transportation. I am also very interested in lane-keeping or auto-pilot technologies while on a highway. And, finally, it is a business decision based on facts: I find myself driving quite a few miles per week and, if you do the math, going electric just makes sense. Then there's the question of battery technology. I can't help but think we are not very far from a shift in battery technology. I, frankly, don't want to find myself in two or three years with a US $90K Tesla sporting an outdated battery, outdated exterior and outdated interior and a tough resale landscape because Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise your hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for $40K. All car companies know how to make electrics. It ain't that difficult when compared to making IC cars. In fact, if you already have a well-tuned infrastructure to build the rest of the car efficiently --which all other car companies have in droves-- building an electric car is actually simpler. Tesla's SUV? Please. It's a joke.
- aianus 11y ago
  > Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise your hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for $40K. Why would any of those companies leapfrog Tesla in battery technology when that's literally Tesla's core competency and they're poised to become the largest battery manufacturer in world?

35 points by dmmalam 11y ago

> Porsche's Mission E is poised to compete with Tesla's Model S No it isn't. Tesla's Model S is in production, and has been for two years. Porsche's Mission E isn't even near production yet. Even the details about the production car's final range and horsepower seem to be tentative. The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger, which apparently isn't finished yet.

scurvy 11y ago
> The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger, which apparently isn't finished yet. The Mission E looks much, much better than any Tesla model.
- Cieplak 11y ago
  Much better. However, I suspect they will change the front bonnet design significantly in order to comply with pedestrian safety standards. Which would be very unfortunate for the aesthetics of the vehicle.
  - S_A_P 11y ago
    Hopefully autonomous safety features will allow the relaxation of the aesthetic robbing requirements.
- dnautics 11y ago
  The Mission E's aesthetic appeals to a certain class of person that would buy a luxury sports model. The Tesla appeals to a different class of person who is purchasing a car for different symbolic reasons. Initially, the Toyota Prius 2nd Gen was panned for its ugly look, but ultimately its distinctiveness became a marketing point as it became a status symbol of its own right - as evidenced by Honda copying it in its 2nd generation Insight. The subjective qualities that define the 'desirable look' of the Misson E may be rejected by some segments of the Tesla market.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    I feel like Tesla's Slighty-More-Practical-Astin design is pretty solidly aimed at the the same crowd as Porsche's Slightly-More-Practical-911 design.
    - joshu 11y ago
      Astin?
      - btreesOfSpring 11y ago
        you can probably assume aston martin here.
        ams6110 11y ago
        That look is decidedly generic these days. Ford copied it on the Fusion, a solidly middle-class family car. The 911 look is classic, distinctive, and timeless.
        joshu 11y ago
        i think you are confusing the front grille with the entire look. they do not look more alike than other random cars. modern 911s only vaguely hint at the originals. the size difference alone is enormous. http://a3.files.airows.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTMwMDU4Njg3NTYwNzU1ODQz.jpg http://a3.files.airows.com/image/upload/c_fit,cs_srgb,dpr_1....
        nl 11y ago
        The Mission E looks good. 911 styling cues aren't the reason though - see the Panamera for how bad the 'turn the 911 into a sports sedan' can look.
        scurvy 11y ago
        Indeed. I see a Tesla Model S and instantly think "run of the mill Hyundai Genesis." My loins don't tingle nor do I think "that's one hot car." The Model S looks have never been wonderful, nor distinctive. It's a great car. It's just not a great looker. The Porsche is a looker. We'll have to wait and see how the finished product performs.
- Retric 11y ago
  Mission E is an ugly ugly car. It's clearly trying to hard to look different, but ends up looking more like a cheap plastic toy than a car.
threeseed 11y ago
> No it isn't. Hence the word "poised" as in it will at some point compete with Tesla. Given that (a) the Tesla S has a pretty cheap looking interior, (b) Porsche is a premium brand with exceptional design sensibilities and (c) Tesla has limited distribution channels I suspect Porsche will easily be a match for Tesla. When Porsche enters new markets they usually do so with very solid products e.g. Cayenne, Macan.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Can't wait to see Porsche's charging network. It's going to be as extensive as Tesla's Superchargers, right?
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    They might use that infrastructure which will allow tesla to become what better-place failed to do - a service provider. Supercharge is free for tesla owners afaik why can't they charge other ev owners, this seems to be both lucrative and savvy as it will solidify their tech as the standard which will give them the edge since they control its life cycle.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- dogma1138 11y ago
  Yeah the interior of the tesla is the biggest gripe most people have with it. There was a tesla promo in the business center i work at and I got finally a chance to sit in one and considering the 100k> GBP price tag it has in the uk it didn't feel like a luxury car at all. Even tho the display model had their best interior the leather didn't feel as good as entry level German cars and the nice carbon fiber inlaid dashboard just felt cheap and squeaky. The interior of the tesla is to me pretty much the same quality of most higher end sedans like the accord and the Passat not anywhere close to luxury car levels.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
thomyorkie 11y ago
> The only serious advantage the car would have over the Tesla would be the 15 minute charger And by 2019 Tesla probably will have something similar.

intopieces 11y ago

>They’re working on an 800-volt charger that will power the car up to 80 percent in just 15 minutes, half the time it takes the Tesla. Not another charger! I suppose the Porsche market isn't filled with range-anxious commuters, though.

threeseed 11y ago
It could be more than the Porsche market though. It is part of the Volkswagen group which means the combination of Porsche, VW, Audi could put some market weight behind the charging implementation.

vvanders 11y ago

Nope. Tesla current beats them on almost all marks: 310 Mile range: This is using the UK cycle which is commonly compared to EPA cycle(which is lower). Using UK to UK you get: - ~320mi range P90D / P90DL - 350mi range 90D 3.5s 0-60: - P90DL: 2.8s - P85D/90D: 3.2s Price: Rumors are in the ~200k range which again Tesla can beat(you can get an 85D for half that with better range and 0-60 which is close). As for the 15min charging. We haven't seen it in production at all. Also the fact that they're going with 800 VDC pack means there's a good chance it won't work with any other DCFC standard(CHAdeMO, SAE Combo, SuperCharger) without a step-up transformer so you'll be limited to only Porsche's chargers. Also you can buy a Tesla today, not years down the line. I really don't understand where all this "Porsche is going to beat Tesla" press comes from, it's like Apple claiming they were the first company to support Open Source, there's nothing to back it up.

bobbles 11y ago
I'm sure there are plenty of people that would look at a functionally reduced electric car because it is a porche, its coming up on 90 years worth of fans building up
ams6110 11y ago
Porsche have an established worldwide dealer and service network. That will give some confidence to certain buyers. If I wanted a Tesla (I don't) I would not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced. I know where the nearest Porsche dealership is, by contrast.
- dmd 11y ago
  If I type "Tesla" into Google, both questions are answered - "by Tesla. 4 miles away, in Watertown, Massachusetts." By contrast, if I type "Porsche" into Google, I get a huge list of resellers and dealers. I have no idea which ones are honest, dishonest, which ones do repair, which ones only sell used, which ones I'm going to have to haggle at...
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > I would not know where to buy one or where to have it serviced. You are on a technology news site, and you are seriously arguing against buying a Tesla because you don't know where their nearest store are, despite this being trivially easy to look up on the internet? Here. You buy them here: https://www.teslamotors.com/ https://www.teslamotors.com/

rsync 11y ago

The real news here is not which car has the best 0-60 time or +/- 5% in the range department ... it's that there is now more than one car for sale. There is a certain class/mindset/attitude of car buyer that even if they don't have a tesla now is just never going to buy a ICE car again. It doesn't matter the price or the specs or the this or the that - the ship has sailed and history has moved on. The problem is, there were no options other than the Tesla. Or at least, no options that weren't, essentially, onion-esque parodies of what electric cars are (I'm looking at you, super lame mercedes B-class). So it is great, great, great news that there will be more than one car to choose from.

henrikschroder 11y ago
> it's that there is now more than one car for sale. What? The target year for this planned Porsche car is 2019.
Corrado 11y ago
I completely agree with you! I have tasted the Tesla fruit and have absolutely no desire to have anything to do with an ICE car ever again. I'm a long time Porsche lover and I used to dream of owning a 911 in the flesh. Now, not so much. In fact, on the same day that I drove the Tesla I visited a Porsche/Audi dealership and found myself not even caring about their cars at all. I found them bulky, small, and uncomfortable. It was truly a sad day for me, until the Tesla guy said "You wanna drive one?" That changed my life. :)

ableal 11y ago

> The motor (or motors, Porsche hasn’t said) One of these days I'd like to know why there are no (well known) one-motor-per-wheel proposals. So much fun to be had with trajectory control ...

kinofcain 11y ago
Hub motors are heavy and unsprung weight is bad. If you're going inboard with driveshafts you might as well put a differential in there and be able to put more than 50% (2wd) or 25%(4wd) of power to one wheel. Putting a motor in each wheel means you can only direct power around by reducing it.

rebootthesystem 11y ago

From my perspective the elephant in the room is something Tesla is unlikely to be able to compete against, particularly as more manufacturers come online with viable full range electric cars: Constant innovation. What I mean by that is car companies are geared-up and used to introducing new and seriously updated models every year or two. They go through many iterations and designs, have hits and misses. And they sell millions of cars per year in the process. In another year or two the Model S will feel, well, dated and old. I have to admit having had this very thought. I've been considering purchasing one for the past year and was going to make a decision in January. And I keep running in circles with multiple arguments in my head. First there's the "this look is getting old" argument. Sorry, superficial, but, hey, that's the way it works. This this wasn't a real-life criteria we all use to buy cars they would still look the way they did twenty years ago because nobody would care. Then there's the interior. As others have pointed out, not the best. I'll just leave it at that. I find my self less interested in a car who's outward and interior design is already several years old. I am not interested in a Tesla because I am a fan boy. I am not. I would like an electric car because I have a nice solar infrastructure at home that I designed to be able to support two electric cars. I also want to stop burning fossil fuel for transportation. I am also very interested in lane-keeping or auto-pilot technologies while on a highway. And, finally, it is a business decision based on facts: I find myself driving quite a few miles per week and, if you do the math, going electric just makes sense. Then there's the question of battery technology. I can't help but think we are not very far from a shift in battery technology. I, frankly, don't want to find myself in two or three years with a US $90K Tesla sporting an outdated battery, outdated exterior and outdated interior and a tough resale landscape because Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise your hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for $40K. All car companies know how to make electrics. It ain't that difficult when compared to making IC cars. In fact, if you already have a well-tuned infrastructure to build the rest of the car efficiently --which all other car companies have in droves-- building an electric car is actually simpler. Tesla's SUV? Please. It's a joke.

aianus 11y ago
> Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ford, GM and even Yugo (raise your hand if you remember them) has a pure electric with 200+ mile range for $40K. Why would any of those companies leapfrog Tesla in battery technology when that's literally Tesla's core competency and they're poised to become the largest battery manufacturer in world?