4 ms·

What even is speaking better? I grew up bilingual, mostly speaking Spanish at home and English at school. I think growing up with a different language can be a

What even is speaking better? I grew up bilingual, mostly speaking Spanish at home and English at school. I think growing up with a different language can be a disadvantage if the children don't spend lots of time reading and learning English but fortunately my parents encouraged that heavily. One thing being a bilingual speaker taught me and having older family members with differing grasps of the English language was not to ascribe too much value to 'correct' grammar or pronunciation. People who are well spoken English speakers have a way of seeming intelligent regardless of actual aptitude and it's easy to dismiss someone with syntax that is unusual or cobbled together from different languages. I rarely if ever work with Latino engineers, but working with lots of Chinese nationals, it has been easy for me to ignore their grammar mistakes and diction choices and focus on the underlying message of what they are saying. For that I'm grateful. Grammar snarkiness is one of the most useless traits of English speakers I've encountered in my adult life. It's funny when Americans claim that British people just 'sound smarter' when British people are just that: British. Same with bad grammar sounding less intelligent, it's not actually any less intelligent as long as it still communicates the message.

vinay427 11y ago
There's certainly a stigma in the US that affects non-native speakers of English. It reminds me of this post that was upvoted a week or so ago: http://antirez.com/news/61 http://antirez.com/news/61 I'm not sure I agree that grammar proficiency is not an indicator for intelligence, however. In my mind it's an aspect of intelligence, but one that is irrelevant when talking about science, math, or a variety of other fields.
- cryptotype 11y ago
  Grammar is absolutely relevant in science, math and various other fields. Noone wants to have to parse ungrammatical documentation or scientific papers. It's certainly possible to get by in STEM with poor grammar, but it is harder to excel that way. Grammar below a certain threshold impedes natural language communication, which is important even in technical fields.
  - knughit 11y ago
    What is good grammar? Good grammar is simply however the current people in power speak. "A language is a dialect with an Army and a Navy".
    - cryptotype 11y ago
      Good grammar is something that helps large groups of people understand each other quickly and clearly. It helps those armies and navies succeed.
    - startling 11y ago
      > Good grammar is something that helps large groups of people understand each other quickly and clearly. It helps those armies and navies succeed. Sure, but this has little to do with perception of good grammar (in the US at least).
  - sbilstein 11y ago
    There's a really big difference between terse academic written language and the kind of mode switching that goes on when speaking out loud for bilingual speakers. Most people have a much easier time following rules of grammar when writing language than when speaking it. Papers in english from academics around the world are often more readable than their spoken english.
cryptotype 11y ago
How well would you consider yourself to speak Spanish: "very well", "well", "not well" or "not at all"? Your English writing is perfect, and I assume you speak English just as well. > Same with bad grammar sounding less intelligent, it's not actually any less intelligent as long as it still communicates the message. Where do you draw the line, though? For example, using "bad" instead of "poor" seems acceptable and not an indication of low linguistic competence. However, consider the sentence "dum talk no mean u dum". It communicates the message, but would you consider someone who said that to be as intelligence as someone phrased it "Same with bad grammar sounding less intelligent, it's not actually any less intelligent as long as it still communicates the message"? I wouldn't. There is a line between being a snob and being someone who expects something above bare-minimum competence. I can understand the meaning of phrases like "dum talk no make u dum", but I find such speech unacceptable. > It's funny when Americans claim that British people just 'sound smarter' when British people are just that: British. That situation is indeed funny, but I think it's beneficial overall. Having a prestige dialect discourages the development of parochial dialects, and helps unify speakers of the language across different regions. It's the same within the United States. My parents are both monolingual English speakers, but have heavy regional accents. My wife and I both have standard American ("CNN English") accents, and occasionally make fun of their accents between the two of us. As American English is to British English, so is regional English to standard American English. We recently moved to another region of the country. Noone here speaks our parents' regional accent, and most of the locals also speak our standard American accent. I think we've met new friends easier than if we both had our parent's strong regional accent.
- sbilstein 11y ago
  I speak Spanish very well though I have several structures I've imported into Spanish from English. Spanish speakers are much less likely to assume I'm dumb or insinuate I am doing something 'wrong' than English speakers in the reverse; presumably because I'm American and Americans are 'well-educated'. I think that's the real grub there in my experience, what we think of bad can be really abritrary depending on what we assume about an individuals background.

vinay427 11y ago

There's certainly a stigma in the US that affects non-native speakers of English. It reminds me of this post that was upvoted a week or so ago: http://antirez.com/news/61 http://antirez.com/news/61 I'm not sure I agree that grammar proficiency is not an indicator for intelligence, however. In my mind it's an aspect of intelligence, but one that is irrelevant when talking about science, math, or a variety of other fields.

cryptotype 11y ago
Grammar is absolutely relevant in science, math and various other fields. Noone wants to have to parse ungrammatical documentation or scientific papers. It's certainly possible to get by in STEM with poor grammar, but it is harder to excel that way. Grammar below a certain threshold impedes natural language communication, which is important even in technical fields.
- knughit 11y ago
  What is good grammar? Good grammar is simply however the current people in power speak. "A language is a dialect with an Army and a Navy".
  - cryptotype 11y ago
    Good grammar is something that helps large groups of people understand each other quickly and clearly. It helps those armies and navies succeed.
  - startling 11y ago
    > Good grammar is something that helps large groups of people understand each other quickly and clearly. It helps those armies and navies succeed. Sure, but this has little to do with perception of good grammar (in the US at least).
- sbilstein 11y ago
  There's a really big difference between terse academic written language and the kind of mode switching that goes on when speaking out loud for bilingual speakers. Most people have a much easier time following rules of grammar when writing language than when speaking it. Papers in english from academics around the world are often more readable than their spoken english.

cryptotype 11y ago

How well would you consider yourself to speak Spanish: "very well", "well", "not well" or "not at all"? Your English writing is perfect, and I assume you speak English just as well. > Same with bad grammar sounding less intelligent, it's not actually any less intelligent as long as it still communicates the message. Where do you draw the line, though? For example, using "bad" instead of "poor" seems acceptable and not an indication of low linguistic competence. However, consider the sentence "dum talk no mean u dum". It communicates the message, but would you consider someone who said that to be as intelligence as someone phrased it "Same with bad grammar sounding less intelligent, it's not actually any less intelligent as long as it still communicates the message"? I wouldn't. There is a line between being a snob and being someone who expects something above bare-minimum competence. I can understand the meaning of phrases like "dum talk no make u dum", but I find such speech unacceptable. > It's funny when Americans claim that British people just 'sound smarter' when British people are just that: British. That situation is indeed funny, but I think it's beneficial overall. Having a prestige dialect discourages the development of parochial dialects, and helps unify speakers of the language across different regions. It's the same within the United States. My parents are both monolingual English speakers, but have heavy regional accents. My wife and I both have standard American ("CNN English") accents, and occasionally make fun of their accents between the two of us. As American English is to British English, so is regional English to standard American English. We recently moved to another region of the country. Noone here speaks our parents' regional accent, and most of the locals also speak our standard American accent. I think we've met new friends easier than if we both had our parent's strong regional accent.

sbilstein 11y ago
I speak Spanish very well though I have several structures I've imported into Spanish from English. Spanish speakers are much less likely to assume I'm dumb or insinuate I am doing something 'wrong' than English speakers in the reverse; presumably because I'm American and Americans are 'well-educated'. I think that's the real grub there in my experience, what we think of bad can be really abritrary depending on what we assume about an individuals background.