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>these men are suffering on a much deeper level than society gives them credit for As a man I don't want society to give me credit for suffering. I also don't

by vlehto 11y ago

>these men are suffering on a much deeper level than society gives them credit for As a man I don't want society to give me credit for suffering. I also don't want pity or empathy. Help? Maybe, but only if you let me pay it back. What I want is to be allowed to solve my own problems. And then a chance to contribute to society. All this while not denouncing my manhood. I'm pretty sure most men feel the same deep down.

themartorana 11y ago
Maybe the help is owed to you, not the other way around.
- vlehto 11y ago
  It doesn't matter. If my identity is not about owing.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    Owing is one of the bases of all relationships. You are free to say that you do not wish to be owed anything, but that does not actually free society from its obligations to you, nor you from your obligations to it. Just sayin'.
begriffs 11y ago
You would love this novel. http://www.amazon.com/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/0679767924 http://www.amazon.com/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/...
- osense 11y ago
  Independent People is one of those rare books that manage to make bad choices relatable to the reader.
eli_gottlieb 11y ago
>I'm pretty sure most men feel the same deep down. No, actually. If I wear my body down so much that I'm dying of work-inflicted wear-and-tear, I damn well do want society's empathy and help. "Manhood" and "self-glorifying martyrdom" are not synonyms. One's ordinary contribution to society shouldn't be cast-from-hitpoints, especially not when it will get you an unremembered early grave. This is the year 2015, not D-Day.
- vlehto 11y ago
  But human genetics mostly unchanged from the days we hunted mammoths. I'm not advocating sacrifice. I just think most guys need the feeling of contributing to stay sane.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Not actually true! Human adaptation has accelerated in the last 50,000 years, recording more changes than in the previous million. Adapting to crowded cities, monotonous diets, close socialization, rote work has marked our genetics in profound ways.
johnny22 11y ago
I guess I don't get what's so great about "manhood". Seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

by vlehto 11y ago

themartorana 11y ago

Maybe the help is owed to you, not the other way around.

vlehto 11y ago
It doesn't matter. If my identity is not about owing.
- Frondo 11y ago
  Owing is one of the bases of all relationships. You are free to say that you do not wish to be owed anything, but that does not actually free society from its obligations to you, nor you from your obligations to it. Just sayin'.

begriffs 11y ago

You would love this novel. http://www.amazon.com/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/0679767924 http://www.amazon.com/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/...

osense 11y ago
Independent People is one of those rare books that manage to make bad choices relatable to the reader.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago

>I'm pretty sure most men feel the same deep down. No, actually. If I wear my body down so much that I'm dying of work-inflicted wear-and-tear, I damn well do want society's empathy and help. "Manhood" and "self-glorifying martyrdom" are not synonyms. One's ordinary contribution to society shouldn't be cast-from-hitpoints, especially not when it will get you an unremembered early grave. This is the year 2015, not D-Day.

vlehto 11y ago
But human genetics mostly unchanged from the days we hunted mammoths. I'm not advocating sacrifice. I just think most guys need the feeling of contributing to stay sane.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Not actually true! Human adaptation has accelerated in the last 50,000 years, recording more changes than in the previous million. Adapting to crowded cities, monotonous diets, close socialization, rote work has marked our genetics in profound ways.

johnny22 11y ago

I guess I don't get what's so great about "manhood". Seems to be more trouble than it's worth.