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> Mozilla has really lost touch with its users. Good on them for backtracking on this, but... This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sa

> Mozilla has really lost touch with its users. Good on them for backtracking on this, but... This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sad. "This group of people did something I don't like, and then they changed their mind and stopped doing it. But rather than being happy about fixing their mistake, I'm going to keep criticizing them for making the mistake in the first place." People (and groups of people) make mistakes. Spending your whole life holding grudges like this is a recipe for permanent grumpiness.

tedunangst 11y ago
The mistake is being highlighted as a symptom of a larger problem. There's little indication the larger problem has been addressed to prevent the recurrence of such mistakes.
scrollaway 11y ago
I understand you don't like the negativity. So tell me now, how did this happen? "Sponsored tiles", nobody batted an eye? Will you try telling me the devs themselves did not see this as a potential source of problem? (I know for a fact that's not the case) OK, let's assume this is a simple mistake. Now what happened with Pocket? We all know devs want to make it into an extension (and are working on it)... so why was Pocket pushed so hard and couldn't wait a couple of Fx versions before being released in a way that would obviously create drama? If you step back and think about these issues you'll see they're systemic. God damn right I'm concerned about Mozilla, a company I respect a lot, becoming a shell of what it claims it stands for.
- Manishearth 11y ago
  > so why was Pocket pushed so hard Was it? All I saw was it being integrated into Firefox, and there being a lot of backlash. Against that backlash, there were a couple of people pushing hard to justify it, but they were either independent or Mozilla employees (often from a different team) posting independent opinions. I don't think Mozilla pushed Pocket a lot. Pushing features through the release cycle is pretty common. Bear in mind that Mozilla integrated Pocket because it was the kind of feature it wanted to have in Sync (or Accounts, whatever it's called), but decided to use a third party service instead of making their own. From that POV it's much more reasonable. Not denying that it could have been done better with a pluggable open API and an open source equivalent (or whatever), but it's not that bad from that lens. Sponsored tiles was an experiment, IIRC. Mozilla wanted to see if non-annoying, easy-to-disable ads could be used to fill otherwise blank space. It seems to have failed. But I would guess that a lot of the devs were hopeful about this experiment. I (not a Mozilla employee, but I do contribute a lot) was, at least.
  - volaski 11y ago
    "Pushed hard", since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user. This is a significant business decision which can change people's perception towards Mozilla. It definitely did for me. It IS a big deal that a popular browser supports some obscure 3rd party service as primary bookmarking service when there are many other 3rd party bookmarking services in the market such as Instapaper.
    - Manishearth 11y ago
      > since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user ...like most other features. Doesn't require pushing. That's how it works. > obscure 3rd party service Apparently it was a rather popular addon in Firefox?
      - volaski 11y ago
        > since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user ...like most other features. Doesn't require pushing. That's how it works. ==> Do we really need to define what "pushing" means? I'm sure you know what I mean by pushing, you're just doing wordplay. That's not how it works. > obscure 3rd party service Apparently it was a rather popular addon in Firefox? ==> What do you think the ratio of (# of pocket extension users / # of total firefox users) is? It's totally fine if FF had supported it as a pure "extension" (doesn't come preinstalled but required users to search and "pull" themselves if they wanted) but the criticism came from the fact that this 3rd party extension came preinstalled and was "pushed" to users.
        Manishearth 11y ago
        > I'm sure you know what I mean by pushing, you're just doing wordplay. That's not how it works. No, I don't. They did with Pocket what they do with every nontrivial feature. Implemented it, and sherriffed it through the release trains. I don't think it was immediately plopped on a Firefox release, I recall seeing it on Developer/Aurora much earlier, which means it went through the release trains like everything else. The OP said, quote, "so why was Pocket pushed _so hard_ and couldn't wait a couple of Fx versions". How was it "pushed" "hard" if they did the _same thing_ they do for other features? Yes, they made the decision to implement this feature. That doesn't count as pushing. I already illustrated why that decision made sense at the time. Perhaps there was some backlash as it was on Aurora/Beta, I don't recall the exact timelines. IMO it's still okay to let the feature -- one which you still think makes sense and would benefit the userbase -- continue to ride the trains and hit a release while you try to understand the criticism and come up with a solution. It may be a better solution to disable it until a decision is made, but that depends on the perceived severity of the problem. Again, I don't see any hard pushing here, just a somewhat justifiable choice. I too would have preferred if they removed the feature when there was backlash, but I don't see anything wrong with the other solution. If you immediately backtracked every time there was criticism nothing would get done. > but the criticism came from the fact that this 3rd party extension came preinstalled and was "pushed" to users. Sure. But you gave the example of Instapaper (which you seem to be more okay with Firefox integrating with); I'm suggesting it was probably less popular than Pocket in FF or at least comparable popularity. I'm not disagreeing that integrating with a closed third party service is not good. I'm just pointing out a flaw in your Instapaper comment.
- espadrine 11y ago
  Why would you expect MoCo not to act like a corporation? They do care for their users a lot, but they consider that they would not help them a lot if they did not exist. Given the deep pockets that have risen to develop the Web to new lengths, Mozilla has needed more money and more developers. They are lacking in the chrome (the UI), in tooling, in platform presence (the iOS version came very late!), and little by little, in Web features. Not to mention musts like tab separation into processes, things that are now implemented in every browser but them. (Edit: removed parallelism.) Imagine you saw that issue, and need increased revenues. You don't want to impact existing users, as you know they would be mad. What do new users see that old users don't? Those empty tiles in about:newtab. Those tiles are useless anyway, and from a UX perspective, new users don't understand what they stand for. Having a few example websites would be a good indication. It fits marvellously in the constraints they had. How about Pocket? As we discussed, their chrome is getting old. In particular, the bookmarks feature is both old, has a lot of old bugs that don't get fixed, and they have wanted to do an overhaul for a long time (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697359 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697359). But they lack development effort. If only there was a company that did bookmarks better than we did, we wouldn't have to do the work! Oh, there is: Pocket. One last thing that they can do to increase revenue is to make competition among search engines be felt. So they switched to Yahoo!. However, Yahoo!'s perspective was to show the world that Yahoo! Search had grown to be much better. Unfortunately, it is still behind as a product in terms of UI cluttering, quality of results, range of inputs... They still don't have a cartographic service! Let alone a worldwide routing engine and a GTFS crawler... So they may disappear. It has become phenomenally hard to compete against Google. Their best shot at relevance is Servo now, but given the huge amount of work that is, they will still need deeper pockets.
  - pcwalton 11y ago
    > parallelism, things that are now implemented in every browser but them. No browser engine is particularly parallel. Gecko is not really more or less parallel than any other engine.
    - espadrine 11y ago
- reitanqild 11y ago
  As a long time Firefox user and enthusiast neither sponsored tiles nor the phone thingy annoyed me to much, especially the tiles thingy could actually have reduced the dependency on Google if it had worked. Now we know they got another search deal but that wasn't always a given.
- reitanqild 11y ago
  One logical explanation why it wasn't made an extension is if somebody was planning on neutering the extensions already back then. :-/
  - richardboegli 11y ago
    Exactly. This would have been on a roadmap somewhere.
fucking_tragedy 11y ago
Trust has to be earned once it has been broken. This wasn't a one off mistake. It was calculated business decision that is a part of an industry trend. Turning a blind eye to this is a recipe for getting perpetually reamed so others can turn a larger profit.
simoncion 11y ago
> This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sad. > "This group of people did something I don't like, and then they changed their mind and stopped doing it. But rather than being happy about fixing their mistake, I'm going to keep criticizing them for making the mistake in the first place." You mistake negativity for the keeping of and referring to a tally sheet. You would -no doubt- find little to object to in the following hypothetical statement: "I'm still dreadfully concerned about my abusive spouse. My spouse has backtracked on the terribly bad policy of random bouts of unfocused rage followed by sporadic, intense emotional and physical violence directed toward my person. Good on my spouse for backtracking, but I still remember the long-standing pattern of similar behavior in our relationship. This pattern saddens and worries me. I'm still strongly considering walking out the door. I wish my spouse the best, but I'm fairly certain that I cannot trust my spouse and that my spouse does not have my best interests at heart." Please note carefully that I'm not comparing poor corporate governance to spousal abuse. I am -however- making the point that it pays to remember when people or companies fail to behave in a way that indicates that they even try to have your interests at heart. A momentary shift in strategy or behavior often fails to either turn into a lasting habit, or happens far too late to undo past harms. If you allow yourself to get strung along by the latest olive branch, without considering the history of the entity making the offer in order to judge the offer's sincerity, you're gonna get played, time after time, after time.
- nnethercote 11y ago
  > Please note carefully that I'm not comparing poor corporate governance to spousal abuse. Don't be disingenuous. That's a ridiculous and awful comparison and you know it. You should be ashamed.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > Don't be disingenuous. I'm absolutely not being disingenuous. As I said, I am -in fact- not making a comparison between the situation with Mozilla and my hypothetical statement. As I stated, I'm illustrating the general point that it often pays to keep track of when an entity has wronged you so you can weigh their current attempts at reconciliation against their history of wrongs. Remember also that I was replying to the following statement: > This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sad. ... "This group of people did something I don't like, and then they changed their mind and stopped doing it. But rather than being happy about fixing their mistake, I'm going to keep criticizing them for making the mistake in the first place." I address the author's misconceptions in the first 'graph of my reply.
reitanqild 11y ago
Problem is there are many questionable choices Dropping Persona and preparing to lobotimize Firefox are my main annoyances. Of course I was never much involved outside of using it sinve v1 and getting new users by installing it everywhere and talking about it since shortly after that
xorcist 11y ago
What you call negativity is people that care. Most companies in the world couldn't dream of customers that care that deeply about the product. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take unpopular decisions when necessary, but it means you have to be deeply in contact with what your users care about. Apparently Firefox users didn't care much for commercials in the browsers. Who knew?

tedunangst 11y ago

The mistake is being highlighted as a symptom of a larger problem. There's little indication the larger problem has been addressed to prevent the recurrence of such mistakes.

scrollaway 11y ago

I understand you don't like the negativity. So tell me now, how did this happen? "Sponsored tiles", nobody batted an eye? Will you try telling me the devs themselves did not see this as a potential source of problem? (I know for a fact that's not the case) OK, let's assume this is a simple mistake. Now what happened with Pocket? We all know devs want to make it into an extension (and are working on it)... so why was Pocket pushed so hard and couldn't wait a couple of Fx versions before being released in a way that would obviously create drama? If you step back and think about these issues you'll see they're systemic. God damn right I'm concerned about Mozilla, a company I respect a lot, becoming a shell of what it claims it stands for.

Manishearth 11y ago
> so why was Pocket pushed so hard Was it? All I saw was it being integrated into Firefox, and there being a lot of backlash. Against that backlash, there were a couple of people pushing hard to justify it, but they were either independent or Mozilla employees (often from a different team) posting independent opinions. I don't think Mozilla pushed Pocket a lot. Pushing features through the release cycle is pretty common. Bear in mind that Mozilla integrated Pocket because it was the kind of feature it wanted to have in Sync (or Accounts, whatever it's called), but decided to use a third party service instead of making their own. From that POV it's much more reasonable. Not denying that it could have been done better with a pluggable open API and an open source equivalent (or whatever), but it's not that bad from that lens. Sponsored tiles was an experiment, IIRC. Mozilla wanted to see if non-annoying, easy-to-disable ads could be used to fill otherwise blank space. It seems to have failed. But I would guess that a lot of the devs were hopeful about this experiment. I (not a Mozilla employee, but I do contribute a lot) was, at least.
- volaski 11y ago
  "Pushed hard", since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user. This is a significant business decision which can change people's perception towards Mozilla. It definitely did for me. It IS a big deal that a popular browser supports some obscure 3rd party service as primary bookmarking service when there are many other 3rd party bookmarking services in the market such as Instapaper.
  - Manishearth 11y ago
    > since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user ...like most other features. Doesn't require pushing. That's how it works. > obscure 3rd party service Apparently it was a rather popular addon in Firefox?
    - volaski 11y ago
      > since the feature made it all the way to production versions which rolled out to every firefox user ...like most other features. Doesn't require pushing. That's how it works. ==> Do we really need to define what "pushing" means? I'm sure you know what I mean by pushing, you're just doing wordplay. That's not how it works. > obscure 3rd party service Apparently it was a rather popular addon in Firefox? ==> What do you think the ratio of (# of pocket extension users / # of total firefox users) is? It's totally fine if FF had supported it as a pure "extension" (doesn't come preinstalled but required users to search and "pull" themselves if they wanted) but the criticism came from the fact that this 3rd party extension came preinstalled and was "pushed" to users.
      - Manishearth 11y ago
        > I'm sure you know what I mean by pushing, you're just doing wordplay. That's not how it works. No, I don't. They did with Pocket what they do with every nontrivial feature. Implemented it, and sherriffed it through the release trains. I don't think it was immediately plopped on a Firefox release, I recall seeing it on Developer/Aurora much earlier, which means it went through the release trains like everything else. The OP said, quote, "so why was Pocket pushed _so hard_ and couldn't wait a couple of Fx versions". How was it "pushed" "hard" if they did the _same thing_ they do for other features? Yes, they made the decision to implement this feature. That doesn't count as pushing. I already illustrated why that decision made sense at the time. Perhaps there was some backlash as it was on Aurora/Beta, I don't recall the exact timelines. IMO it's still okay to let the feature -- one which you still think makes sense and would benefit the userbase -- continue to ride the trains and hit a release while you try to understand the criticism and come up with a solution. It may be a better solution to disable it until a decision is made, but that depends on the perceived severity of the problem. Again, I don't see any hard pushing here, just a somewhat justifiable choice. I too would have preferred if they removed the feature when there was backlash, but I don't see anything wrong with the other solution. If you immediately backtracked every time there was criticism nothing would get done. > but the criticism came from the fact that this 3rd party extension came preinstalled and was "pushed" to users. Sure. But you gave the example of Instapaper (which you seem to be more okay with Firefox integrating with); I'm suggesting it was probably less popular than Pocket in FF or at least comparable popularity. I'm not disagreeing that integrating with a closed third party service is not good. I'm just pointing out a flaw in your Instapaper comment.
espadrine 11y ago
Why would you expect MoCo not to act like a corporation? They do care for their users a lot, but they consider that they would not help them a lot if they did not exist. Given the deep pockets that have risen to develop the Web to new lengths, Mozilla has needed more money and more developers. They are lacking in the chrome (the UI), in tooling, in platform presence (the iOS version came very late!), and little by little, in Web features. Not to mention musts like tab separation into processes, things that are now implemented in every browser but them. (Edit: removed parallelism.) Imagine you saw that issue, and need increased revenues. You don't want to impact existing users, as you know they would be mad. What do new users see that old users don't? Those empty tiles in about:newtab. Those tiles are useless anyway, and from a UX perspective, new users don't understand what they stand for. Having a few example websites would be a good indication. It fits marvellously in the constraints they had. How about Pocket? As we discussed, their chrome is getting old. In particular, the bookmarks feature is both old, has a lot of old bugs that don't get fixed, and they have wanted to do an overhaul for a long time (see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697359 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=697359). But they lack development effort. If only there was a company that did bookmarks better than we did, we wouldn't have to do the work! Oh, there is: Pocket. One last thing that they can do to increase revenue is to make competition among search engines be felt. So they switched to Yahoo!. However, Yahoo!'s perspective was to show the world that Yahoo! Search had grown to be much better. Unfortunately, it is still behind as a product in terms of UI cluttering, quality of results, range of inputs... They still don't have a cartographic service! Let alone a worldwide routing engine and a GTFS crawler... So they may disappear. It has become phenomenally hard to compete against Google. Their best shot at relevance is Servo now, but given the huge amount of work that is, they will still need deeper pockets.
- pcwalton 11y ago
  > parallelism, things that are now implemented in every browser but them. No browser engine is particularly parallel. Gecko is not really more or less parallel than any other engine.
  - espadrine 11y ago
reitanqild 11y ago
As a long time Firefox user and enthusiast neither sponsored tiles nor the phone thingy annoyed me to much, especially the tiles thingy could actually have reduced the dependency on Google if it had worked. Now we know they got another search deal but that wasn't always a given.
reitanqild 11y ago
One logical explanation why it wasn't made an extension is if somebody was planning on neutering the extensions already back then. :-/
- richardboegli 11y ago
  Exactly. This would have been on a roadmap somewhere.

fucking_tragedy 11y ago

Trust has to be earned once it has been broken. This wasn't a one off mistake. It was calculated business decision that is a part of an industry trend. Turning a blind eye to this is a recipe for getting perpetually reamed so others can turn a larger profit.

simoncion 11y ago

> This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sad. > "This group of people did something I don't like, and then they changed their mind and stopped doing it. But rather than being happy about fixing their mistake, I'm going to keep criticizing them for making the mistake in the first place." You mistake negativity for the keeping of and referring to a tally sheet. You would -no doubt- find little to object to in the following hypothetical statement: "I'm still dreadfully concerned about my abusive spouse. My spouse has backtracked on the terribly bad policy of random bouts of unfocused rage followed by sporadic, intense emotional and physical violence directed toward my person. Good on my spouse for backtracking, but I still remember the long-standing pattern of similar behavior in our relationship. This pattern saddens and worries me. I'm still strongly considering walking out the door. I wish my spouse the best, but I'm fairly certain that I cannot trust my spouse and that my spouse does not have my best interests at heart." Please note carefully that I'm not comparing poor corporate governance to spousal abuse. I am -however- making the point that it pays to remember when people or companies fail to behave in a way that indicates that they even try to have your interests at heart. A momentary shift in strategy or behavior often fails to either turn into a lasting habit, or happens far too late to undo past harms. If you allow yourself to get strung along by the latest olive branch, without considering the history of the entity making the offer in order to judge the offer's sincerity, you're gonna get played, time after time, after time.

nnethercote 11y ago
> Please note carefully that I'm not comparing poor corporate governance to spousal abuse. Don't be disingenuous. That's a ridiculous and awful comparison and you know it. You should be ashamed.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > Don't be disingenuous. I'm absolutely not being disingenuous. As I said, I am -in fact- not making a comparison between the situation with Mozilla and my hypothetical statement. As I stated, I'm illustrating the general point that it often pays to keep track of when an entity has wronged you so you can weigh their current attempts at reconciliation against their history of wrongs. Remember also that I was replying to the following statement: > This kind of negativity is really common on HN and it makes me sad. ... "This group of people did something I don't like, and then they changed their mind and stopped doing it. But rather than being happy about fixing their mistake, I'm going to keep criticizing them for making the mistake in the first place." I address the author's misconceptions in the first 'graph of my reply.

reitanqild 11y ago

Problem is there are many questionable choices Dropping Persona and preparing to lobotimize Firefox are my main annoyances. Of course I was never much involved outside of using it sinve v1 and getting new users by installing it everywhere and talking about it since shortly after that

xorcist 11y ago

What you call negativity is people that care. Most companies in the world couldn't dream of customers that care that deeply about the product. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take unpopular decisions when necessary, but it means you have to be deeply in contact with what your users care about. Apparently Firefox users didn't care much for commercials in the browsers. Who knew?