6 ms·

That cars enable upward mobility and easy access to jobs devoid of the ever reaching control from the central planning agencies? More power to them.

by Agustus 11y ago

scentoni 11y ago
That cars block upward mobility because of the great costs of vehicle, upkeep, fuel, and parking.
- dsfyu404ed 11y ago
  If you don't live in a state where insurance is absurdly expensive, don't live somewhere gas is absurdly expensive that is also very spread out (California, Alaska) and aren't insistent upon driving something new you can easily have a reliably car for under $3k or even under $2k and drive it for ~$500/yr in various fees (insurance) before gas. Add in a $120 set of tires and rims every other year (because you don't buy new, you buy used). If you live in a blue collar neighborhood maintenance usually costs next to nothing because you trade services with your neighbors or church congregation or have relatives or close friends that will do things at cost. If you're not trying to visibly live the suburban upper middle class lifestyle personal freedom of movement can be had relatively cheaply.
  - Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago
    If you can walk to work, shoes can be had for under $100, much cheaper than even the cheapest car. This same pair of shoes can even last more than a year and would be needed regardless of mode of transportation. If you can bike to work, a cheap crappy bike can be acquired off Craigslist for at most a couple hundred. If you're in a place like NYC, a monthly subway pass is roughly $120 and can handle all of your travel needs for the whole month, not just travel to and from work. No need to shell out $2K - $3K up front; that much money could pay for travel for over a year on the NYC subway and buses. You won't have to worry about your car getting stolen, getting in an accident, break downs, traffic, etc. >If you're not trying to visibly live the suburban upper middle class lifestyle personal freedom of movement can be had relatively cheaply. If you're not trying to force everyone into an autocentric lifestyle, then freedom of moment can be had for lower prices, or even free if walking to work is possible.
    - wpietri 11y ago
      Agreed. And for comparison, AAA has the average annual cost to own and operate a car at $8698 this year: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/annual-cost-operate-vehicle-falls-8698-finds-aaa/ http://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/annual-cost-operate-vehicle-...
  - kuschku 11y ago
    > ~$500/yr in various fees (insurance) before gas. Add in a $120 set of tires and rims every other year (because you don't buy new, you buy used). If you live in a blue collar neighborhood maintenance usually costs next to nothing because you trade services with your neighbors or church congregation or have relatives or close friends that will do things at cost. So, 560$/year without gas? 522.26$ a year is public transit for me. So I’d save 40$ a year, plus all the gas. And my commute times are lower, I’m never stuck in traffic, and even if the commute might be long on some days, I can continue working or browsing the web during it.
    - paulddraper 11y ago
      And carry groceries for you and the rest of your family home via shoes/bike/public transit.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        Which is not an issue, because I pass a grocery store every day, so I can buy every day only a few items, meaning I never have to carry much. And if I want to buy furniture – these are a thing: https://yeswecandoalmostanythingbybike.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/img_0862.jpg https://yeswecandoalmostanythingbybike.files.wordpress.com/2... (Or I can just rent a car). I’ve been doing this for over a year now, no issues. On the uni campus is a small mall, too, or I can take 2 bus stations to the downtown area where I can literally buy anything, and it’s easy to transport, too. Hell, I’ve seen 2 students who bought one of these https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Handtruck.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Handtruc... and transported 3 boxes of beer with them in the bus. Lots of old people use normal hand trolleys for transporting groceries via transit or by foot. There are trailers for bikes. It’s really not an issue. (Also, while still living with my parents, we all buy our own stuff ourselves – even my 12yo sister does so. That reduces the amounts one person has to buy, too)
Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago
> That cars enable upward mobility and easy access to jobs devoid of the ever reaching control from the central planning agencies? Suburbs have extreme central planning. Go peruse your local town's zoning and land use ordinances. You'll see exactly the number of parking spaces you must provide, exactly how big your lawn must be at a minimum, how many apartments you can have in an apartment building (or if it's even allowed to build an apartment building), whether or not you can charge for parking, and even where it's legal to walk. No, cars didn't free you from central planning. They enslaved you to it and tricked you into thinking cars are free market transportation.
- Agustus 11y ago
  If I did not have a vehicle I would be forced to live along a route dictated by the likes of yourself. Whereupon I would be forced to choose jobs that would be only along the transit route; whereupon rents / prices for residential and commercial ownership increases as more people compete for a route oriented locations. Your last line of enslavement is quite amusing when logic is applied: Telling the rat that it is in a clear jar that it is not free is demeaning, but who is telling the rat this; a fellow rat who is also enslaved in a clear jar.

That cars enable upward mobility and easy access to jobs devoid of the ever reaching control from the central planning agencies? More power to them.

by Agustus 11y ago

That cars enable upward mobility and easy access to jobs devoid of the ever reaching control from the central planning agencies? More power to them.

scentoni 11y ago

That cars block upward mobility because of the great costs of vehicle, upkeep, fuel, and parking.

dsfyu404ed 11y ago
If you don't live in a state where insurance is absurdly expensive, don't live somewhere gas is absurdly expensive that is also very spread out (California, Alaska) and aren't insistent upon driving something new you can easily have a reliably car for under $3k or even under $2k and drive it for ~$500/yr in various fees (insurance) before gas. Add in a $120 set of tires and rims every other year (because you don't buy new, you buy used). If you live in a blue collar neighborhood maintenance usually costs next to nothing because you trade services with your neighbors or church congregation or have relatives or close friends that will do things at cost. If you're not trying to visibly live the suburban upper middle class lifestyle personal freedom of movement can be had relatively cheaply.
- Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago
  If you can walk to work, shoes can be had for under $100, much cheaper than even the cheapest car. This same pair of shoes can even last more than a year and would be needed regardless of mode of transportation. If you can bike to work, a cheap crappy bike can be acquired off Craigslist for at most a couple hundred. If you're in a place like NYC, a monthly subway pass is roughly $120 and can handle all of your travel needs for the whole month, not just travel to and from work. No need to shell out $2K - $3K up front; that much money could pay for travel for over a year on the NYC subway and buses. You won't have to worry about your car getting stolen, getting in an accident, break downs, traffic, etc. >If you're not trying to visibly live the suburban upper middle class lifestyle personal freedom of movement can be had relatively cheaply. If you're not trying to force everyone into an autocentric lifestyle, then freedom of moment can be had for lower prices, or even free if walking to work is possible.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Agreed. And for comparison, AAA has the average annual cost to own and operate a car at $8698 this year: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/annual-cost-operate-vehicle-falls-8698-finds-aaa/ http://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/annual-cost-operate-vehicle-...
- kuschku 11y ago
  > ~$500/yr in various fees (insurance) before gas. Add in a $120 set of tires and rims every other year (because you don't buy new, you buy used). If you live in a blue collar neighborhood maintenance usually costs next to nothing because you trade services with your neighbors or church congregation or have relatives or close friends that will do things at cost. So, 560$/year without gas? 522.26$ a year is public transit for me. So I’d save 40$ a year, plus all the gas. And my commute times are lower, I’m never stuck in traffic, and even if the commute might be long on some days, I can continue working or browsing the web during it.
  - paulddraper 11y ago
    And carry groceries for you and the rest of your family home via shoes/bike/public transit.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Which is not an issue, because I pass a grocery store every day, so I can buy every day only a few items, meaning I never have to carry much. And if I want to buy furniture – these are a thing: https://yeswecandoalmostanythingbybike.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/img_0862.jpg https://yeswecandoalmostanythingbybike.files.wordpress.com/2... (Or I can just rent a car). I’ve been doing this for over a year now, no issues. On the uni campus is a small mall, too, or I can take 2 bus stations to the downtown area where I can literally buy anything, and it’s easy to transport, too. Hell, I’ve seen 2 students who bought one of these https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Handtruck.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Handtruc... and transported 3 boxes of beer with them in the bus. Lots of old people use normal hand trolleys for transporting groceries via transit or by foot. There are trailers for bikes. It’s really not an issue. (Also, while still living with my parents, we all buy our own stuff ourselves – even my 12yo sister does so. That reduces the amounts one person has to buy, too)

Zach_the_Lizard 11y ago

> That cars enable upward mobility and easy access to jobs devoid of the ever reaching control from the central planning agencies? Suburbs have extreme central planning. Go peruse your local town's zoning and land use ordinances. You'll see exactly the number of parking spaces you must provide, exactly how big your lawn must be at a minimum, how many apartments you can have in an apartment building (or if it's even allowed to build an apartment building), whether or not you can charge for parking, and even where it's legal to walk. No, cars didn't free you from central planning. They enslaved you to it and tricked you into thinking cars are free market transportation.

Agustus 11y ago
If I did not have a vehicle I would be forced to live along a route dictated by the likes of yourself. Whereupon I would be forced to choose jobs that would be only along the transit route; whereupon rents / prices for residential and commercial ownership increases as more people compete for a route oriented locations. Your last line of enslavement is quite amusing when logic is applied: Telling the rat that it is in a clear jar that it is not free is demeaning, but who is telling the rat this; a fellow rat who is also enslaved in a clear jar.