4 ms·

Noooo. We cannot win the "war on terrorism" while people still have this misconception. The Islamic terrorist don't care about the west at all, their goal is to

by xixixao 11y ago

Noooo. We cannot win the "war on terrorism" while people still have this misconception. The Islamic terrorist don't care about the west at all, their goal is to gain ground in countries with Islamic population. The only reason west got dragged into this war was because AL Quaida were miserably failing at this in the 90s, and so tried to create a common enemy: the west. I encourage everyone to read more on this topic and the background behind AL Quaida and Isis.

mc32 11y ago
That's an interesting valid point, still, the terrorists don't actually care how we deal with things internally. In other words they are not concerned with our behavioral changes and whether they lead to an erosion of liberty or not. Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be. Yes, but we don't actually have to help them to further their goals.
  - mc32 11y ago
    If they only care about their world and to further their own goals in the middle east and don't actually care about the west directly (we are a pretext), and don't plan to extend their power beyond their historic influence, how would anything happening in the west be to their benefit? They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". It's already the enemy, so what benefit is it to them we have self inflicted wounds, unless they have sights on expanding their dominion to the west?
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      > They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". Oh, we absolutely can. See, we could be a passive enemy and that would be good for them, but not as good as an enemy that actually engages. That's what drives the spiral of polarization and demonization. Without the spiral it stops at the first level and their recruiting power is reduced accordingly.
      - mc32 11y ago
        But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west? I guess it depends what you mean by passive.
        jacquesm 11y ago
        > But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west? Collectively, the west is what did the destabilizing of the region to begin with. That is what caused them to gain the power that they have now. We created a huge power vacuum because collectively we're not prepared to pay the price for maintaining the structural integrity of the region. Starting this is easy, maintaining an orderly society in a 'western' way that does not want to be an orderly society is a lost cause. So now we have an entirely new situation. We can choose to escalate but this will - in due course - again require that we commit ourselves to putting large numbers of people in harms way for an extended period, probably on the level that will make the Iraq wars look like Sunday outings on the beach. > I guess it depends what you mean by passive. Passive to me means defense, so defend our own turf, let the 'locals' work things out as much as possible without interference other than to accept refugees from the region and to actively aid refugees in leaving these regimes behind. Leave them their oil wells and weapons but don't buy their oil, don't sell them more weapons (and serious sanctions against those that violate embargoes). Close the borders outbound. And deal with the rotten apples that make it in with the refugees as the criminals that they are. That's not an easy path, it would lead to a ton of trouble but I believe strongly that it would lead to less trouble than the alternatives.
mcv 11y ago
One of the ways they try to gain support among Muslims, is by ensuring that Muslims feel hated and excluded by us. They want to convince them that there's no future in moderate Islam, they want all Muslims to believe this is an existential battle for them. So if we exclude Muslims, send refugees back, discriminate, harass and bomb them, we are making ISIS correct in that claim. What we should be doing, is demonstrating that there is a future in moderate Islam. That we accept them as equals, rather than treat them as subhuman.

by xixixao 11y ago

mc32 11y ago

That's an interesting valid point, still, the terrorists don't actually care how we deal with things internally. In other words they are not concerned with our behavioral changes and whether they lead to an erosion of liberty or not. Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be.

jacquesm 11y ago
> Their only concern is to further their own goals, whatever they be. Yes, but we don't actually have to help them to further their goals.
- mc32 11y ago
  If they only care about their world and to further their own goals in the middle east and don't actually care about the west directly (we are a pretext), and don't plan to extend their power beyond their historic influence, how would anything happening in the west be to their benefit? They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". It's already the enemy, so what benefit is it to them we have self inflicted wounds, unless they have sights on expanding their dominion to the west?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". Oh, we absolutely can. See, we could be a passive enemy and that would be good for them, but not as good as an enemy that actually engages. That's what drives the spiral of polarization and demonization. Without the spiral it stops at the first level and their recruiting power is reduced accordingly.
    - mc32 11y ago
      But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west? I guess it depends what you mean by passive.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        > But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west? Collectively, the west is what did the destabilizing of the region to begin with. That is what caused them to gain the power that they have now. We created a huge power vacuum because collectively we're not prepared to pay the price for maintaining the structural integrity of the region. Starting this is easy, maintaining an orderly society in a 'western' way that does not want to be an orderly society is a lost cause. So now we have an entirely new situation. We can choose to escalate but this will - in due course - again require that we commit ourselves to putting large numbers of people in harms way for an extended period, probably on the level that will make the Iraq wars look like Sunday outings on the beach. > I guess it depends what you mean by passive. Passive to me means defense, so defend our own turf, let the 'locals' work things out as much as possible without interference other than to accept refugees from the region and to actively aid refugees in leaving these regimes behind. Leave them their oil wells and weapons but don't buy their oil, don't sell them more weapons (and serious sanctions against those that violate embargoes). Close the borders outbound. And deal with the rotten apples that make it in with the refugees as the criminals that they are. That's not an easy path, it would lead to a ton of trouble but I believe strongly that it would lead to less trouble than the alternatives.

mcv 11y ago

One of the ways they try to gain support among Muslims, is by ensuring that Muslims feel hated and excluded by us. They want to convince them that there's no future in moderate Islam, they want all Muslims to believe this is an existential battle for them. So if we exclude Muslims, send refugees back, discriminate, harass and bomb them, we are making ISIS correct in that claim. What we should be doing, is demonstrating that there is a future in moderate Islam. That we accept them as equals, rather than treat them as subhuman.