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I feel like the discussion around this post will suffer from a lack of specificity over what a 'software developer' is. Someone who works primarily on small ja

I feel like the discussion around this post will suffer from a lack of specificity over what a 'software developer' is. Someone who works primarily on small javascript web applications has a really different job from someone who works on a large application built on a LAMP stack, or someone who writes complex iOS applications, or someone designs self-driving car software for Google, or someone who works on embedded software for pacemakers, or someone who writes operating systems or designs programming languages. Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. Two people who are both 'software developers' don't necessarily have similar skills, training or education.

sbov 11y ago
Yet all of those jobs have one thing in common: you have to know how to code. Being able to code is the baseline for all of them. If you can't code on some level, you can't do any of those jobs. The article is about coding, not engineering, the software process, reliability, etc. All of that just further raises the bar.
- bryanlarsen 11y ago
  I think gabemart threw in "small javascript web application" as an example of a job where you don't need to know how to code, where you can get by copying & pasting from Stack Overflow. A more interesting example is his "pacemaker embedded software" example. There's actually not very much software in a pacemaker. So that's an example of a field where engineering, process, testing & reliability skills are much more important than the ability to actually code. The coding in something like a pacemaker is usually done by an electrical engineer. A good EE may not be a good coder, but they should have the other skills you mentioned.
Alex3917 11y ago
> Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. I think the commonality is that at the minimum you need to be able to read English at a proficient level, which weeds out the vast majority of American adults.
- eloff 11y ago
  The vast majority of adults can't read English well? Let's get real here, that's not even close to the truth.
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that? I live in America, and your claim sounds somewhat bizarre.
    - eloff 11y ago
      You meant to reply to the parent right? Just look at the published studies on the topic. One can argue for roughly 20% functionally illiterate easily, any higher and its really just speculation. Certainly far from a "vast majority"
  - ry_ry 11y ago
    You say tomato, I say t0m47oLoL
- bovermyer 11y ago
  Did you seriously just suggest that the majority of American adults are illiterate? I'd love to see the source you base that claim on.
  - Alex3917 11y ago
    > I'd love to see the source you base that claim on. Like the government's official data on adult literacy? http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF After 1994 they got rid of the 'advanced' literacy ability category, corresponding to roughly the level academic journal articles are written at, because not enough Americans qualified. So currently the top literacy level is 'proficient', which is roughly the minimum level you'd need in order to teach yourself to become a competent developer. (That's basically the level you need to read a newspaper and compare and contrast the information presented in two different articles.)
onion2k 11y ago
Someone who works primarily on small javascript web applications has a really different job from someone who works on a large application built on a LAMP stack, or someone who writes complex iOS applications, or someone designs self-driving car software for Google, or someone who works on embedded software for pacemakers, or someone who writes operating systems or designs programming languages. Do they? If your job is primarily about taking other people's work and writing code based on it then, in my opinion, you don't really build software. You write code. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that, but it's definitely different. Building software is much more than writing code. Software development is working out what a problem is, what the solution to the problem is, and how to implement that solution on a computer. There should be time spent talking to users, gathering requirements, writing specifications, designing a user experience, developing a test strategy, thinking about stuff, writing documentation, and, at the end, a bit of coding. The non-coding side of software development isn't especially different between specialisms. So, really, software development in the sense of everything necessary to make a piece of software does require approximately the same set of skills. That said though, the knowledge required in any given part of the software industry is very different. A web developer needs to know very different things to someone doing graphics or embedded development.
- dasboth 11y ago
  The software development aspect that you describe cannot be taught at a boot camp. I think the people claiming you can learn to code in a day mean (or think they mean) the coding part, and probably don't realise there's all that other stuff on top of it. I would like to emphasise the last point you made. The coding skills, while broadly similar, are still different in each of those specialisms. Learning how to write effective code for a pacemaker is very different from writing a Ruby on Rails web app. They're both "coding" and you need the same kind of abstract thought, but you need to understand very different things to be good at them.

sbov 11y ago

Yet all of those jobs have one thing in common: you have to know how to code. Being able to code is the baseline for all of them. If you can't code on some level, you can't do any of those jobs. The article is about coding, not engineering, the software process, reliability, etc. All of that just further raises the bar.

bryanlarsen 11y ago
I think gabemart threw in "small javascript web application" as an example of a job where you don't need to know how to code, where you can get by copying & pasting from Stack Overflow. A more interesting example is his "pacemaker embedded software" example. There's actually not very much software in a pacemaker. So that's an example of a field where engineering, process, testing & reliability skills are much more important than the ability to actually code. The coding in something like a pacemaker is usually done by an electrical engineer. A good EE may not be a good coder, but they should have the other skills you mentioned.

Alex3917 11y ago

> Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. I think the commonality is that at the minimum you need to be able to read English at a proficient level, which weeds out the vast majority of American adults.

eloff 11y ago
The vast majority of adults can't read English well? Let's get real here, that's not even close to the truth.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that? I live in America, and your claim sounds somewhat bizarre.
  - eloff 11y ago
    You meant to reply to the parent right? Just look at the published studies on the topic. One can argue for roughly 20% functionally illiterate easily, any higher and its really just speculation. Certainly far from a "vast majority"
- ry_ry 11y ago
  You say tomato, I say t0m47oLoL
bovermyer 11y ago
Did you seriously just suggest that the majority of American adults are illiterate? I'd love to see the source you base that claim on.
- Alex3917 11y ago
  > I'd love to see the source you base that claim on. Like the government's official data on adult literacy? http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF After 1994 they got rid of the 'advanced' literacy ability category, corresponding to roughly the level academic journal articles are written at, because not enough Americans qualified. So currently the top literacy level is 'proficient', which is roughly the minimum level you'd need in order to teach yourself to become a competent developer. (That's basically the level you need to read a newspaper and compare and contrast the information presented in two different articles.)

onion2k 11y ago

Someone who works primarily on small javascript web applications has a really different job from someone who works on a large application built on a LAMP stack, or someone who writes complex iOS applications, or someone designs self-driving car software for Google, or someone who works on embedded software for pacemakers, or someone who writes operating systems or designs programming languages. Do they? If your job is primarily about taking other people's work and writing code based on it then, in my opinion, you don't really build software. You write code. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that, but it's definitely different. Building software is much more than writing code. Software development is working out what a problem is, what the solution to the problem is, and how to implement that solution on a computer. There should be time spent talking to users, gathering requirements, writing specifications, designing a user experience, developing a test strategy, thinking about stuff, writing documentation, and, at the end, a bit of coding. The non-coding side of software development isn't especially different between specialisms. So, really, software development in the sense of everything necessary to make a piece of software does require approximately the same set of skills. That said though, the knowledge required in any given part of the software industry is very different. A web developer needs to know very different things to someone doing graphics or embedded development.

dasboth 11y ago
The software development aspect that you describe cannot be taught at a boot camp. I think the people claiming you can learn to code in a day mean (or think they mean) the coding part, and probably don't realise there's all that other stuff on top of it. I would like to emphasise the last point you made. The coding skills, while broadly similar, are still different in each of those specialisms. Learning how to write effective code for a pacemaker is very different from writing a Ruby on Rails web app. They're both "coding" and you need the same kind of abstract thought, but you need to understand very different things to be good at them.