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Or put another way, the people who create something worth $300B out of nothing get to decide what happens to their share of the $300B. And as a bonus, these ar

Or put another way, the people who create something worth $300B out of nothing get to decide what happens to their share of the $300B. And as a bonus, these are people with demonstrated success in their ventures, and they are given free reign to pursue their vision fully. Whereas the public sector is a mess of a dysfunctional congress, infighting, posturing, pork, global warming deniers, and discourse targeted to short attention spans and the 24 hour news cycle. There is something very troubling about the idea that the more successful/valuable your creation becomes, the less entitled you are to invest the fruit of your success into your next idea.

turar 11y ago
Why should Joe Schmoe earning an honest $75K/year have less say than that though?
- haberman 11y ago
  Mark Zuckerberg isn't taking anything away from the $75k/year guy. He just has more because he created something valuable. If you are an artist so good that your paintings are worth $1M each, should you get to have them? Or should someone walk in your door and say "whoa there, you have too much now, we're taking your paintings until you have the same amount of wealth as the $75k/year guy"?
  - stephenr 11y ago
    > If you are an artist so good that your paintings are worth $1M each, should you get to have them? Or should someone walk in your door and say "whoa there, you have too much now, we're taking your paintings until you have the same amount of wealth as the $75k/year guy"? If you paint million dollar paintings and leave them in your studio, I guarantee you the IRS will not knock on your door and say "you have too many paintings now, we're going to take them now". If you sell those paintings, and make an INCOME, the IRS will expect you to pay INCOME TAX. Seriously. How is the basic concept of taxes so hard to understand?
    - res0nat0r 11y ago
      Zuck is paying his taxes and isn't breaking any laws with any of this. The OP submission and most of these replies really sounds like jealousy than anything else.
      - stephenr 11y ago
        The comment I replied to was talking about a tax agency coming into your home/office and claiming privately created artworks because you "have too many".
    - haberman 11y ago
      Wealth taxes exist in other countries and are proposed by some people for the US. I was speaking generally and not in reference to a specific tax regime. And besides, converting the paintings to money would be necessary before it could be used for charitable purposes anyway, so the distinction you are drawing is not very relevant. I'm not opposed to taxes but I am opposed to the idea that taxes should equalize everyone's wealth and that all big investment should come from the government.
      - turar 11y ago
        My point was that it's not fair that someone gets to pay a smaller tax rate just because his taxable base is larger. If anything, it should be the other way around. My original income tax vs. capital gains tax parallel was wrong though, but the premise is the same. If Joe Schmoe has managed to invest $5K in the stock market and grew it to $10K, his capital gains tax rate shouldn't be higher than Zuck's.
groutexpectatio 11y ago
No one's saying he can't get profit and put it back into the system, as long as you _pay your taxes_. But if you're not paying your taxes, and you're resorting to the private sector, then you're really just squirreling away your wealth to do what you see is fit. We've seen how that works in 501c4s, with dark money and PACs. We've seen how that worked with Carnegie-style redistribution at the expense of working class labor. And we don't want to see that anymore. If you're going to invest the fruit of your success into a next idea, thats fine, but don't forget that real people, the public, made you that wealthy, and give back to them, the way they want it.
- natural219 11y ago
  It's very interesting that you think the best way to give back to the public is through...government discretional spending? A couple thought experiments: 1) If public sector spending was a good vehicle for increasing the public welfare, why don't people donate money to the USFG over other charities? Surely the Effective Altruism movement would be very interested if this were the case. 2) In 2015, the USFG spent $229 Billion on interest on all of the debts it owes, over 6% of its total budget. What makes you think paying off interest of the bad decisions of the legislative branch takes priority over any good-will private sector philanthropy, no matter how ego-fueled?
sdenton4 11y ago
<em>And as a bonus, these are people with demonstrated success in their ventures...</em> And no experience in medicine, famine relief, climate science or any of a hundred other areas. And let's remember that plenty of billionaires are climate change deniers, sitting at the center of dysfunctional corporate hierarchies full of infighting, posturing, and suspect expense accounts.
- haberman 11y ago
  Honest question: do you think the world would be better off if 100% of the budget of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation went straight to the US Federal Government instead? Sure, Bill Gates didn't start off with that experience. But from what I have seen of the foundation, I believe they are more effective in bettering the world, dollar for dollar, than the US Government.
  - vacri 11y ago
    The Gates Foundation's purpose is "bettering the world". The US Government's purpose is "bettering the US". With that in mind, it's not particularly suprising that the Gates Foundation would be better at your given task.
    - haberman 11y ago
      So the complaint now is that the money is going to where it's most needed rather than to the US specifically? This argument is sounding less like an argument for justice and fairness and more like simple jealousy.
devsquid 11y ago
Thats based on the false assumption that money comes from nothing and that we live in this perfect system where we deserve the money we earn and those that don't earn it don't deserve it. Mark, for example, was born, lived, grew up, went to school, started a business, etc, etc in the US and benefited from all of the things the US offers. You owe a lot to your government, and subsequently the 'tax payers', than you statement seems to suggest. Also the idea that Mark deserves all of his money because he earned it is also false. There are millions of people that have worked harder to succeed in life than Mark. Mark just got lucky. I don't mean to diminish his accomplishments, but luck plays a large role with any individuals success. That is one of the founding reasons for proper wealth redistribution.
- haberman 11y ago
  I certainly agree with progressive taxation, and that Mark owes a lot to his upbringing, and that luck plays a role. I was reacting to the claim that wealthy people have "undue influence on public spending." They should have outsized influence based on their outsized success.
- nightski 11y ago
  I find it hard to argue that you owe anyone else in the U.S. because everyone receives similar benefits. Mark didn't receive "extra" benefits above and beyond any other U.S. citizen. In fact, the richer you are the less you benefit typically.
  - luckydude 11y ago
    So then it would be just as likely that a Mark should emerge from a poor third world country, right? When I was younger I had the naive opinion that my successes were my own doing. As I got older my opinion changed. Yes, I had something to do with it, absolutely. But a lot of it was being the right person in the right place at the right time. There is a reason that I log in as luckydude.
    - nightski 11y ago
zizee 11y ago
> create something worth $300B out of nothing Out of nothing? Would Zuckerburg been able to create Facebook if he was born and raised to subsistence farmers in Afghanistan, and lived his adult life in Sheberghan? The fact is, people living in advanced nations have had huge investments made in them by their communities/nations in the form of clean water, schools, roads, rule of law and a thousand other things. Citizen's are morally obligated to pay a fair amount of tax, and because Zuckerburg has been widely successful, he should contribute much more that the average joe, even if he doesn't consume enough for it to be "fair".
- haberman 11y ago
  I agree with that, but if successful entrepreneurs want to do charitable works themselves, I think they should have that freedom -- if not tax-free, then certainly at a much lower tax than if they were buying a fleet of private jets.
fsloth 11y ago
"...the people who create something worth $300B out of nothing..." This is a false statement. I applaud people who succeed in their businesses but accruation of lots of capital to a few people is not only due to them but due to the existing society around them. Infrastructure which facilitates logistics and enables a pool of workforce, stable civil society, etc. Not to talk about the economic system which makes financial transactions cheap and predictable. If you don't like the idea of redistribution, let's think it like this: from the point of view of personal wealth, the economy is like a giant casino where the games are more complicated but most people actually win - and some people win a lot. Taxes can be thought as a fee for the right to participate in the fun and games.
- abalone 11y ago
  Let us not forget the Internet and many of the other technologies that make Facebook possible are a product of government investment (e.g. DARPA).

turar 11y ago

Why should Joe Schmoe earning an honest $75K/year have less say than that though?

haberman 11y ago
Mark Zuckerberg isn't taking anything away from the $75k/year guy. He just has more because he created something valuable. If you are an artist so good that your paintings are worth $1M each, should you get to have them? Or should someone walk in your door and say "whoa there, you have too much now, we're taking your paintings until you have the same amount of wealth as the $75k/year guy"?
- stephenr 11y ago
  > If you are an artist so good that your paintings are worth $1M each, should you get to have them? Or should someone walk in your door and say "whoa there, you have too much now, we're taking your paintings until you have the same amount of wealth as the $75k/year guy"? If you paint million dollar paintings and leave them in your studio, I guarantee you the IRS will not knock on your door and say "you have too many paintings now, we're going to take them now". If you sell those paintings, and make an INCOME, the IRS will expect you to pay INCOME TAX. Seriously. How is the basic concept of taxes so hard to understand?
  - res0nat0r 11y ago
    Zuck is paying his taxes and isn't breaking any laws with any of this. The OP submission and most of these replies really sounds like jealousy than anything else.
    - stephenr 11y ago
      The comment I replied to was talking about a tax agency coming into your home/office and claiming privately created artworks because you "have too many".
  - haberman 11y ago
    Wealth taxes exist in other countries and are proposed by some people for the US. I was speaking generally and not in reference to a specific tax regime. And besides, converting the paintings to money would be necessary before it could be used for charitable purposes anyway, so the distinction you are drawing is not very relevant. I'm not opposed to taxes but I am opposed to the idea that taxes should equalize everyone's wealth and that all big investment should come from the government.
    - turar 11y ago
      My point was that it's not fair that someone gets to pay a smaller tax rate just because his taxable base is larger. If anything, it should be the other way around. My original income tax vs. capital gains tax parallel was wrong though, but the premise is the same. If Joe Schmoe has managed to invest $5K in the stock market and grew it to $10K, his capital gains tax rate shouldn't be higher than Zuck's.

groutexpectatio 11y ago

No one's saying he can't get profit and put it back into the system, as long as you _pay your taxes_. But if you're not paying your taxes, and you're resorting to the private sector, then you're really just squirreling away your wealth to do what you see is fit. We've seen how that works in 501c4s, with dark money and PACs. We've seen how that worked with Carnegie-style redistribution at the expense of working class labor. And we don't want to see that anymore. If you're going to invest the fruit of your success into a next idea, thats fine, but don't forget that real people, the public, made you that wealthy, and give back to them, the way they want it.

natural219 11y ago
It's very interesting that you think the best way to give back to the public is through...government discretional spending? A couple thought experiments: 1) If public sector spending was a good vehicle for increasing the public welfare, why don't people donate money to the USFG over other charities? Surely the Effective Altruism movement would be very interested if this were the case. 2) In 2015, the USFG spent $229 Billion on interest on all of the debts it owes, over 6% of its total budget. What makes you think paying off interest of the bad decisions of the legislative branch takes priority over any good-will private sector philanthropy, no matter how ego-fueled?

sdenton4 11y ago

<em>And as a bonus, these are people with demonstrated success in their ventures...</em> And no experience in medicine, famine relief, climate science or any of a hundred other areas. And let's remember that plenty of billionaires are climate change deniers, sitting at the center of dysfunctional corporate hierarchies full of infighting, posturing, and suspect expense accounts.

haberman 11y ago
Honest question: do you think the world would be better off if 100% of the budget of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation went straight to the US Federal Government instead? Sure, Bill Gates didn't start off with that experience. But from what I have seen of the foundation, I believe they are more effective in bettering the world, dollar for dollar, than the US Government.
- vacri 11y ago
  The Gates Foundation's purpose is "bettering the world". The US Government's purpose is "bettering the US". With that in mind, it's not particularly suprising that the Gates Foundation would be better at your given task.
  - haberman 11y ago
    So the complaint now is that the money is going to where it's most needed rather than to the US specifically? This argument is sounding less like an argument for justice and fairness and more like simple jealousy.

devsquid 11y ago

Thats based on the false assumption that money comes from nothing and that we live in this perfect system where we deserve the money we earn and those that don't earn it don't deserve it. Mark, for example, was born, lived, grew up, went to school, started a business, etc, etc in the US and benefited from all of the things the US offers. You owe a lot to your government, and subsequently the 'tax payers', than you statement seems to suggest. Also the idea that Mark deserves all of his money because he earned it is also false. There are millions of people that have worked harder to succeed in life than Mark. Mark just got lucky. I don't mean to diminish his accomplishments, but luck plays a large role with any individuals success. That is one of the founding reasons for proper wealth redistribution.

haberman 11y ago
I certainly agree with progressive taxation, and that Mark owes a lot to his upbringing, and that luck plays a role. I was reacting to the claim that wealthy people have "undue influence on public spending." They should have outsized influence based on their outsized success.
nightski 11y ago
I find it hard to argue that you owe anyone else in the U.S. because everyone receives similar benefits. Mark didn't receive "extra" benefits above and beyond any other U.S. citizen. In fact, the richer you are the less you benefit typically.
- luckydude 11y ago
  So then it would be just as likely that a Mark should emerge from a poor third world country, right? When I was younger I had the naive opinion that my successes were my own doing. As I got older my opinion changed. Yes, I had something to do with it, absolutely. But a lot of it was being the right person in the right place at the right time. There is a reason that I log in as luckydude.
  - nightski 11y ago

zizee 11y ago

> create something worth $300B out of nothing Out of nothing? Would Zuckerburg been able to create Facebook if he was born and raised to subsistence farmers in Afghanistan, and lived his adult life in Sheberghan? The fact is, people living in advanced nations have had huge investments made in them by their communities/nations in the form of clean water, schools, roads, rule of law and a thousand other things. Citizen's are morally obligated to pay a fair amount of tax, and because Zuckerburg has been widely successful, he should contribute much more that the average joe, even if he doesn't consume enough for it to be "fair".

haberman 11y ago
I agree with that, but if successful entrepreneurs want to do charitable works themselves, I think they should have that freedom -- if not tax-free, then certainly at a much lower tax than if they were buying a fleet of private jets.

fsloth 11y ago

"...the people who create something worth $300B out of nothing..." This is a false statement. I applaud people who succeed in their businesses but accruation of lots of capital to a few people is not only due to them but due to the existing society around them. Infrastructure which facilitates logistics and enables a pool of workforce, stable civil society, etc. Not to talk about the economic system which makes financial transactions cheap and predictable. If you don't like the idea of redistribution, let's think it like this: from the point of view of personal wealth, the economy is like a giant casino where the games are more complicated but most people actually win - and some people win a lot. Taxes can be thought as a fee for the right to participate in the fun and games.

abalone 11y ago
Let us not forget the Internet and many of the other technologies that make Facebook possible are a product of government investment (e.g. DARPA).