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A CTO’s Startup Journey in Beijing Zhongguancun Science Park

20 points by obicho 11y ago

dcsan 11y ago
Great read! You mentioned various services that have equivalents in china. Can you share a URL for tower? (trello clone). Have you found a good replacement for google spreadsheets? I like Airtable, but its worrying what might get blocked, when. With the GFC in the middle often accessing those from outside china is very slow, so having a global team someone has a problem. I guess there also self-hosted OSS options for services. Good luck with KBStreet! Hopefully Tencent won't rewrite the rules on KOLs.
- hunvreus 11y ago
  1. I think he meant https://tower.im https://tower.im. There's also https://www.teambition.com/ https://www.teambition.com/ for project management. They're respectively clones of Trello and Basecamp (haven't used either of them). 2. Honestly, rather than looking for alternatives, I'd invest in a good VPN. We've tried a lot of different setups and services (individual VPN, smart routing in and out of our office...), but Astrill (https://www.astrill.com/ https://www.astrill.com/) has been consistently good (save for a couple times when the internet was simply slow in all of China regardless). We pay for individual "VIP" accounts for our employees and use everything we need (Gmail, Google Docs, Twitter, ...). 3. We are however considering running an npm proxy at the office to speed things up a little.
  - obicho 11y ago
    You brought up a good point about VPN. We considered in the beginning but at the end we decided not to. We feel since our market and our customers are mainly in China, it will be best to use what's available within China. From a technical infrastructure stand point, that'd be better also since we won't have to deal with so many potential point-of-failures. We did sign up for a few VPN accounts so we can reference things from time to time.
- obicho 11y ago
  We haven't found a replacement for Google spreadsheet. We however found a great replacement for Google Doc. https://shimo.im/ https://shimo.im/
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
jzwinck 11y ago
> the only downside of doing it in Beijing is that you’d have to tolerate the bad weather and air pollution That is certainly a huge downside, but isn't another one the fact that you seem to be stuck "fast following," building everything on top of services which the author admits are "clones" of popular ones from outside China? I suppose it depends what the author's business is. I didn't catch that from the article.
- nstj 11y ago
  The business seems to be "KB Street" - Influencer Marketing Platform for the Chinese Market, http://www.kbstreet.com/about_en/ http://www.kbstreet.com/about_en/
- gozo 11y ago
  I would say that "fast following" is a necessity for the Chinese market. Just look at how poorly Europe is served by US startups and our cultures are quite similar. Many western service are "clones" of other western services anyways. I'm not entirely sure what the huge downside would be?
- obicho 11y ago
  My experience there tells me that things move very fast. If you don't change, adapt or pivot at the right time, you can sink pretty fast.
- contingencies 11y ago
  fast following It goes both ways. Once you see how many e-bikes are on the streets and e-tractors are on the fields here in China, you realize that Tesla is also fast following. Other examples would be widespread mobile app-driven social payments (Tencen't Wepay), "farmer's markets", nanny-state levels of surveillance.
duiker101 11y ago
That was a very interesting read. Anyone has the same experience as a dev how hard would it be to relocate there? Also, the article mentions that tech talent is scarce, does this influences salaries in a good way?
- hunvreus 11y ago
  You seem to be from the UK. I'd move to London, Berlin or SF before considering China if what you're after is a big salary. Keep in mind that things are not as easy as they used to be for Visa either (you need a certain level of education and 2 years of professional experience relevant to your diploma). If you're determined to move to China, I'd recommend you avoid Beijing (super polluted, hard to get around and cold as f*ck in the winter). Kunming sounds good, so does Chengdu. I personally like Xiamen, but not sure there's any real tech community there. Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai and Hangzhou are also options. Shameless plug; for anybody interested, we're hiring in Shanghai. We work mostly with React, Node.js, Swift, Golang, Android, Python, Docker, Ansible. We build apps that matter: https://wiredcraft.com/about/#jobs https://wiredcraft.com/about/#jobs
- obicho 11y ago
  Thank you for reading. If you have a solid tech background, you will not have any problem relocating there. This was my second time. My first time was in 2005 and I relocated to Shanghai. As far as dev salary is concerned, most expats get better packages, especially if you've a hard-to-find skill set.
- contingencies 11y ago
  Another option if you are willing to strike out on your own or invest some time up front is to go somewhere cheaper without the Beijing/other large city problems of air pollution, climate, traffic and cost. This will allow you to tackle language and culture challenges on your own terms and timeframe without breaking the bank. Personally I love it here in Kunming! The weather is great, air quality and traffic is still OK, nature is on your doorstep and you can easily rent a reasonably sized place (eg. 3 bedrooms) for 2000元 per month (ie. USD$75/week). Plus, great international community and direct flights to other places (Thailand, India, Paris, etc.) are quick and cheap. We are starting a maker space here right now: http://cave.pratyeka.org/ http://cave.pratyeka.org/
yitchelle 11y ago
"I was greeted by my CEO who just dashed in from the hospital as someone in his family had passed away a few hours earlier." Whoa, is this how CEOs are in China? Priorities are misaligned here...I skipping this article.
- obicho 11y ago
  CEOs in China come in a variety. My experience with CEOs there have been mostly positive. Most know what they are doing. In our case, he was just dropping the key off so I could get in.
- morgante 11y ago
  > Priorities are misaligned here...I skipping this article. How so? It didn't necessarily mean that his immediately family had passed away. A member of my extended family might die and I would certainly go to the hospital and attend the funeral, but I would still probably get back to work a few hours later.

20 points by obicho 11y ago

dcsan 11y ago

Great read! You mentioned various services that have equivalents in china. Can you share a URL for tower? (trello clone). Have you found a good replacement for google spreadsheets? I like Airtable, but its worrying what might get blocked, when. With the GFC in the middle often accessing those from outside china is very slow, so having a global team someone has a problem. I guess there also self-hosted OSS options for services. Good luck with KBStreet! Hopefully Tencent won't rewrite the rules on KOLs.

hunvreus 11y ago
1. I think he meant https://tower.im https://tower.im. There's also https://www.teambition.com/ https://www.teambition.com/ for project management. They're respectively clones of Trello and Basecamp (haven't used either of them). 2. Honestly, rather than looking for alternatives, I'd invest in a good VPN. We've tried a lot of different setups and services (individual VPN, smart routing in and out of our office...), but Astrill (https://www.astrill.com/ https://www.astrill.com/) has been consistently good (save for a couple times when the internet was simply slow in all of China regardless). We pay for individual "VIP" accounts for our employees and use everything we need (Gmail, Google Docs, Twitter, ...). 3. We are however considering running an npm proxy at the office to speed things up a little.
- obicho 11y ago
  You brought up a good point about VPN. We considered in the beginning but at the end we decided not to. We feel since our market and our customers are mainly in China, it will be best to use what's available within China. From a technical infrastructure stand point, that'd be better also since we won't have to deal with so many potential point-of-failures. We did sign up for a few VPN accounts so we can reference things from time to time.
obicho 11y ago
We haven't found a replacement for Google spreadsheet. We however found a great replacement for Google Doc. https://shimo.im/ https://shimo.im/

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

jzwinck 11y ago

> the only downside of doing it in Beijing is that you’d have to tolerate the bad weather and air pollution That is certainly a huge downside, but isn't another one the fact that you seem to be stuck "fast following," building everything on top of services which the author admits are "clones" of popular ones from outside China? I suppose it depends what the author's business is. I didn't catch that from the article.

nstj 11y ago
The business seems to be "KB Street" - Influencer Marketing Platform for the Chinese Market, http://www.kbstreet.com/about_en/ http://www.kbstreet.com/about_en/
gozo 11y ago
I would say that "fast following" is a necessity for the Chinese market. Just look at how poorly Europe is served by US startups and our cultures are quite similar. Many western service are "clones" of other western services anyways. I'm not entirely sure what the huge downside would be?
obicho 11y ago
My experience there tells me that things move very fast. If you don't change, adapt or pivot at the right time, you can sink pretty fast.
contingencies 11y ago
fast following It goes both ways. Once you see how many e-bikes are on the streets and e-tractors are on the fields here in China, you realize that Tesla is also fast following. Other examples would be widespread mobile app-driven social payments (Tencen't Wepay), "farmer's markets", nanny-state levels of surveillance.

duiker101 11y ago

That was a very interesting read. Anyone has the same experience as a dev how hard would it be to relocate there? Also, the article mentions that tech talent is scarce, does this influences salaries in a good way?

hunvreus 11y ago
You seem to be from the UK. I'd move to London, Berlin or SF before considering China if what you're after is a big salary. Keep in mind that things are not as easy as they used to be for Visa either (you need a certain level of education and 2 years of professional experience relevant to your diploma). If you're determined to move to China, I'd recommend you avoid Beijing (super polluted, hard to get around and cold as f*ck in the winter). Kunming sounds good, so does Chengdu. I personally like Xiamen, but not sure there's any real tech community there. Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai and Hangzhou are also options. Shameless plug; for anybody interested, we're hiring in Shanghai. We work mostly with React, Node.js, Swift, Golang, Android, Python, Docker, Ansible. We build apps that matter: https://wiredcraft.com/about/#jobs https://wiredcraft.com/about/#jobs
obicho 11y ago
Thank you for reading. If you have a solid tech background, you will not have any problem relocating there. This was my second time. My first time was in 2005 and I relocated to Shanghai. As far as dev salary is concerned, most expats get better packages, especially if you've a hard-to-find skill set.
contingencies 11y ago
Another option if you are willing to strike out on your own or invest some time up front is to go somewhere cheaper without the Beijing/other large city problems of air pollution, climate, traffic and cost. This will allow you to tackle language and culture challenges on your own terms and timeframe without breaking the bank. Personally I love it here in Kunming! The weather is great, air quality and traffic is still OK, nature is on your doorstep and you can easily rent a reasonably sized place (eg. 3 bedrooms) for 2000元 per month (ie. USD$75/week). Plus, great international community and direct flights to other places (Thailand, India, Paris, etc.) are quick and cheap. We are starting a maker space here right now: http://cave.pratyeka.org/ http://cave.pratyeka.org/

yitchelle 11y ago

"I was greeted by my CEO who just dashed in from the hospital as someone in his family had passed away a few hours earlier." Whoa, is this how CEOs are in China? Priorities are misaligned here...I skipping this article.

obicho 11y ago
CEOs in China come in a variety. My experience with CEOs there have been mostly positive. Most know what they are doing. In our case, he was just dropping the key off so I could get in.
morgante 11y ago
> Priorities are misaligned here...I skipping this article. How so? It didn't necessarily mean that his immediately family had passed away. A member of my extended family might die and I would certainly go to the hospital and attend the funeral, but I would still probably get back to work a few hours later.