18 ms·

You take it as a given that the private sector is well-run and wise. Nobody is saying either solution is great. All it's saying is that: wouldn't it be better

by HiLo 11y ago

You take it as a given that the private sector is well-run and wise. Nobody is saying either solution is great. All it's saying is that: wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen, versus billionaires who may or may not be making relevant investments? edit: Just downvotes, no response?

RHSeeger 11y ago
I take it as a given that, when a private individual uses their money, at least one person probably thought the way it was used was a good idea. I do not take it as a given that, when the government spends money, anyone thought how it was spent was a good idea (like spending 8 billion dollars to design a tank... yes, that's billions, with a "b" (also, I love that movie))
- HiLo 11y ago
  This is such a retarded argument. How did it get into the budget if nobody thought it was a good idea? Do you know how much of a fight it is to get anything in there at all? Furthermore, all you're doing is cherry picking data points to support your argument without factoring in that military and medical equipment all have huge, onerous requirements for tracking every step of the supply chain, to the mine the metal came out of, which makes cost structures very weird. What about the Manhattan Project, or the Hoover Dam, or the Interstate System. Bad investments? See, I can cherry pick too.
- merpnderp 11y ago
  Well the parasitic corporate/government relationship thought it was a good idea. But few hosts care to listen to the votes of their parasites. And it wasn't really a tank, but some sort of useless hybrid designed to maximize the number of US casualties in any conflict with a modern army. I kid, that's just the side effect of maximizing the amount of graft which flowed into the companies involved and then back into the hands of the politicians involved.
bmmayer1 11y ago
"wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen" This assumes the money in question belongs to the state to begin with, and we're merely deciding how it is to be allocated. That is not the case. This is not the rich deciding what to do with the public money, it's the rich deciding what to do with their own money. I think we would all agree, regardless of level of income, we would rather our own money be allocated to the causes that we support, rather than the causes that 51% of people support.
- HiLo 11y ago
  "it's the rich deciding what to do with their own money." No, I wouldn't agree on that at all. That runs entirely counterproductive to what our society is built on. This is the arrogance people talk about - you think you know what is better for people than they do.
  - anon4 11y ago
    Each individual knows what's best for themselves and also what's best for the people, duh. And the more money you have the more you know what's bester.
  - saosebastiao 11y ago
    Actually, it is, at least using your own arguments. The money in this case actually does belong to the billionaire. He earned it under the legal environment decided by our democratically chosen government. And he gets to keep what the democratically chosen government decided is his to keep. And he gets to choose how to spend it, because the democratically chosen government has decided to afford him that freedom.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  The money does belong to the state. Examine the front and back of any bill. Where do you think Federal Reserve Notes come from?
  - clock_tower 11y ago
jMyles 11y ago
I upvoted you, but disagree with your assessment. > wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen In a word: no. Although the state spends some money on things that aren't abhorrent - broken clock politics as it were - it also spends money killing, torturing, and imprisoning people. So I think it's a very defensible moral stand to give the state as little money as possible.
- HiLo 11y ago
  Private companies used to spend money killing, torturing, imprisoning, exploiting, robbing, and oppressing people, until the public stopped them through the means available to them in government. And you're saying this is a bad thing, and the power should mostly rest with private companies? At least with the government, the people staffing the bureaucracies and agencies don't have their (non-existent) bonus tied to how hard they fucked a customer over.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - jMyles 11y ago
    > And you're saying this is a bad thing Where did I say that? I'm not the cynic you seem to whom you seem to be responding; I believe that the internet age will empower nonviolence from non-state actors as well as an end to the violence of government. Although we may have needed government to stifle private violence in the past, I don't think we do any longer. > the people staffing the bureaucracies and agencies don't have their (non-existent) bonus tied to how hard they fucked a customer over. For most reasonable definitions of "bonus" for a bureaucrat, I think that this statement is false. Oliver North and John Yoo is not in prison. Hillary Clinton is running for President. These people all received bonuses for wrecking havoc on a level about which no private entity can dream.
    - simoncion 11y ago
      > Although we may have needed government to stifle private violence in the past, I don't think we do any longer. We moved from private jackbooted-thugs-for-hire to public police protection because thugs-for-hire are unaccountable. Sadly, over the past hundred years or so we've forgotten this lesson, lost our vigilance, and have permitted many of our public servants to make themselves largely unaccountable for their actions. Power and leadership structures naturally emerge in sufficiently large groups of people. This is unavoidable, even in sufficiently large anarchist organizations. As the Dothan, AL incident has most recently demonstrated, evil people come to power from time to time. All healthy organizations must be able to detect evil people and remove them from power. In your future where government is no longer permitted to apply force, where is the accountability? Who detects and ejects evil? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
krisroadruck 11y ago
Billionaires ARE democratically chosen. Think that all the way through. What is more democratic than direct voting with ones dollars? Politicians in the US are actually not all that democratically chosen. The individual vote accounts for almost nothing. Look into how the electoral college system works for example. There are 2 great ways to learn a bit more about this, one in the form of an Adam Ruins Everything episode on voting, and the other in the form of this video by Cenk of TYT network: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcc0Q_6pZYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcc0Q_6pZYU
- kuschku 11y ago
  Try not paying money to Nestle, Comcast, Unilever, ATT, TWC, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook for 2 months, and tell me how you manage.
- Retra 11y ago
  >What is more democratic than direct voting with ones dollars? Are you serious? How about voting with your voice. Next you'll be arguing that we should vote with bullets and that'll make a democracy. There are things that you simply can't "vote with your dollars" for. And you sure as shit can't do it if you don't have any money.
saosebastiao 11y ago
It isn't necessary to believe that the private sector is well run and wise for that statement to be relevant. All that is necessary is for the private sector to be better run and wiser than the government. In the US, that isn't hard to fathom, although I could probably accept the premise if we all lived in Germany.
- HiLo 11y ago
  Compare the Federal Reserve to many of these subprime "technology driven" lending startups. Who is more professionally staffed? Compare the NSA to Palantir. Compare NASA to SpaceX. Compare the Treasury to Enron. Compare Bell Labs with WorldCom. Your argument isn't as strong as your Econ 101 textbook made it out to be.
  - saosebastiao 11y ago
    Do silly and subjective comparisons of handpicked outliers come in Econ 102? What exactly did I say that has anything to do with Econ 101? It isn't even an economic argument.
    - HiLo 11y ago
      >All that is necessary is for the private sector to be better run and wiser than the government. Many economists would consider this to be a problem that falls under their realm of expertise. Can you provide counterexamples? If you look, there is plenty of competency in both sectors.
      - saosebastiao 11y ago
        > Many economists would consider this to be a problem that falls under their realm of expertise. Econ 101 doesn't opine on the relative efficiency merits of government vs private sectors...makes me wonder if you have ever even taken an economics course. You misrepresent both Economics as a field of study and the argument I was trying to make (which was an argument by logical reasoning, not economic reasoning). If you'll notice, I even mentioned a specific government (the german government) as one I would entrust my money to, so it should be pretty fucking obvious the argument never was about government vs private, but rather our government vs private. > Can you provide counterexamples? If you look, there is plenty of competency in both sectors. Yes, I can provide counterexamples, but that I'm not gonna beat up your straw man for you. There is plenty of competency in both sectors, but you can't deny that if my money goes to the US government, that a significantly large portion of it will go to extremely bad ideas, such as blowing arabs up and funding the militaries of foreign governments that will help blow up more arabs, subsidizing millionaire farmers, subsidizing automobile travel, creating laws that imprison people for victimless crimes and building the expensive prisons to house them for mandatory minimum amounts of time, etc. Sure, we democratically elected this shit, but we could democratically elect any pile of shit and it would still be a pile of shit. I see no utilitarian value in respecting the whims of 51% of the population.
moistgorilla 11y ago
>democratically chosen I think we can both agree that the term "democratically chosen" contains many positive connotations which simply don't apply to the current US government. If I were a billionaire, I personally would do as much as legally possible to keep my money out of the hands of the government and personally seeing that it is used for the betterment of society. Because frankly, the idea that the current US government is effectively spending this money for our betterment is ridiculous.
slavik81 11y ago
The reality is that the details of how money is spent are in the hands of bureaucrats. I trust the guy who wants to use his own money to build a legacy for himself. He has more motivation to get results than a government bureaucrat making decisions about spending someone else's money.
- HiLo 11y ago
  This is entirely subjective. What about those who devote their lives to a cause and go into government? Your money is better than their passion? This line of logic would suggest mercenaries are always have more incentive than soldiers.
  - slavik81 11y ago
    I know many people who work in government. They do their job and they take home their pay. Nothing more. If they became personally invested in the outcome of their work, they'd probably eventually quit, because they have little ability to actually make a difference.
    - HiLo 11y ago
      Hey, did you know that's 95% of the private sector, too?
      - slavik81 11y ago
        Indeed. Part of the difference is that I can start my own company in which I do have control. I cannot start my own government.
- Retra 11y ago
  You trust the guy? Well, I don't. How about we vote on it.
  - slavik81 11y ago
    Federal elections occur every two years. You've already voted on it.
moultano 11y ago
Ensemble models always win. The democratically chosen already have almost all of the power. It's ok that a few other people have a little as a hedge in case that works better.
bmelton 11y ago
> wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen, versus billionaires Sure. If you want your money to go to the causes that everybody else supports, then absolutely, you should give more money to the government. However, if you want the money to go to underfunded fields, or areas in which the government doesn't support at all, then you're left with making contributions to non-governmental charities or organizations. I regularly donate to the EFF, ACLU, SAF, CBLDF, and St. Jude, Habitat for Humanity, among others. Of that list, only St. Jude and Habitat could be arguably better spent through direct taxation. It's possible that the government does more for children's cancer and housing the homeless than those charities do -- it is not possible that the government does a better job of acting as a watchdog agency for the government than the EFF, ACLU, SAF or CBLDF. Beyond that, when I donate directly, I get the satisfaction of knowing that none of the money given goes towards causes I do not support, like war-making, privacy violations, etc.

by HiLo 11y ago

RHSeeger 11y ago

I take it as a given that, when a private individual uses their money, at least one person probably thought the way it was used was a good idea. I do not take it as a given that, when the government spends money, anyone thought how it was spent was a good idea (like spending 8 billion dollars to design a tank... yes, that's billions, with a "b" (also, I love that movie))

HiLo 11y ago
This is such a retarded argument. How did it get into the budget if nobody thought it was a good idea? Do you know how much of a fight it is to get anything in there at all? Furthermore, all you're doing is cherry picking data points to support your argument without factoring in that military and medical equipment all have huge, onerous requirements for tracking every step of the supply chain, to the mine the metal came out of, which makes cost structures very weird. What about the Manhattan Project, or the Hoover Dam, or the Interstate System. Bad investments? See, I can cherry pick too.
merpnderp 11y ago
Well the parasitic corporate/government relationship thought it was a good idea. But few hosts care to listen to the votes of their parasites. And it wasn't really a tank, but some sort of useless hybrid designed to maximize the number of US casualties in any conflict with a modern army. I kid, that's just the side effect of maximizing the amount of graft which flowed into the companies involved and then back into the hands of the politicians involved.

bmmayer1 11y ago

"wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen" This assumes the money in question belongs to the state to begin with, and we're merely deciding how it is to be allocated. That is not the case. This is not the rich deciding what to do with the public money, it's the rich deciding what to do with their own money. I think we would all agree, regardless of level of income, we would rather our own money be allocated to the causes that we support, rather than the causes that 51% of people support.

HiLo 11y ago
"it's the rich deciding what to do with their own money." No, I wouldn't agree on that at all. That runs entirely counterproductive to what our society is built on. This is the arrogance people talk about - you think you know what is better for people than they do.
- anon4 11y ago
  Each individual knows what's best for themselves and also what's best for the people, duh. And the more money you have the more you know what's bester.
- saosebastiao 11y ago
  Actually, it is, at least using your own arguments. The money in this case actually does belong to the billionaire. He earned it under the legal environment decided by our democratically chosen government. And he gets to keep what the democratically chosen government decided is his to keep. And he gets to choose how to spend it, because the democratically chosen government has decided to afford him that freedom.
jsprogrammer 11y ago
The money does belong to the state. Examine the front and back of any bill. Where do you think Federal Reserve Notes come from?
- clock_tower 11y ago

jMyles 11y ago

I upvoted you, but disagree with your assessment. > wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen In a word: no. Although the state spends some money on things that aren't abhorrent - broken clock politics as it were - it also spends money killing, torturing, and imprisoning people. So I think it's a very defensible moral stand to give the state as little money as possible.

HiLo 11y ago
Private companies used to spend money killing, torturing, imprisoning, exploiting, robbing, and oppressing people, until the public stopped them through the means available to them in government. And you're saying this is a bad thing, and the power should mostly rest with private companies? At least with the government, the people staffing the bureaucracies and agencies don't have their (non-existent) bonus tied to how hard they fucked a customer over.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- jMyles 11y ago
  > And you're saying this is a bad thing Where did I say that? I'm not the cynic you seem to whom you seem to be responding; I believe that the internet age will empower nonviolence from non-state actors as well as an end to the violence of government. Although we may have needed government to stifle private violence in the past, I don't think we do any longer. > the people staffing the bureaucracies and agencies don't have their (non-existent) bonus tied to how hard they fucked a customer over. For most reasonable definitions of "bonus" for a bureaucrat, I think that this statement is false. Oliver North and John Yoo is not in prison. Hillary Clinton is running for President. These people all received bonuses for wrecking havoc on a level about which no private entity can dream.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    > Although we may have needed government to stifle private violence in the past, I don't think we do any longer. We moved from private jackbooted-thugs-for-hire to public police protection because thugs-for-hire are unaccountable. Sadly, over the past hundred years or so we've forgotten this lesson, lost our vigilance, and have permitted many of our public servants to make themselves largely unaccountable for their actions. Power and leadership structures naturally emerge in sufficiently large groups of people. This is unavoidable, even in sufficiently large anarchist organizations. As the Dothan, AL incident has most recently demonstrated, evil people come to power from time to time. All healthy organizations must be able to detect evil people and remove them from power. In your future where government is no longer permitted to apply force, where is the accountability? Who detects and ejects evil? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

krisroadruck 11y ago

Billionaires ARE democratically chosen. Think that all the way through. What is more democratic than direct voting with ones dollars? Politicians in the US are actually not all that democratically chosen. The individual vote accounts for almost nothing. Look into how the electoral college system works for example. There are 2 great ways to learn a bit more about this, one in the form of an Adam Ruins Everything episode on voting, and the other in the form of this video by Cenk of TYT network: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcc0Q_6pZYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcc0Q_6pZYU

kuschku 11y ago
Try not paying money to Nestle, Comcast, Unilever, ATT, TWC, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook for 2 months, and tell me how you manage.
Retra 11y ago
>What is more democratic than direct voting with ones dollars? Are you serious? How about voting with your voice. Next you'll be arguing that we should vote with bullets and that'll make a democracy. There are things that you simply can't "vote with your dollars" for. And you sure as shit can't do it if you don't have any money.

saosebastiao 11y ago

It isn't necessary to believe that the private sector is well run and wise for that statement to be relevant. All that is necessary is for the private sector to be better run and wiser than the government. In the US, that isn't hard to fathom, although I could probably accept the premise if we all lived in Germany.

HiLo 11y ago
Compare the Federal Reserve to many of these subprime "technology driven" lending startups. Who is more professionally staffed? Compare the NSA to Palantir. Compare NASA to SpaceX. Compare the Treasury to Enron. Compare Bell Labs with WorldCom. Your argument isn't as strong as your Econ 101 textbook made it out to be.
- saosebastiao 11y ago
  Do silly and subjective comparisons of handpicked outliers come in Econ 102? What exactly did I say that has anything to do with Econ 101? It isn't even an economic argument.
  - HiLo 11y ago
    >All that is necessary is for the private sector to be better run and wiser than the government. Many economists would consider this to be a problem that falls under their realm of expertise. Can you provide counterexamples? If you look, there is plenty of competency in both sectors.
    - saosebastiao 11y ago
      > Many economists would consider this to be a problem that falls under their realm of expertise. Econ 101 doesn't opine on the relative efficiency merits of government vs private sectors...makes me wonder if you have ever even taken an economics course. You misrepresent both Economics as a field of study and the argument I was trying to make (which was an argument by logical reasoning, not economic reasoning). If you'll notice, I even mentioned a specific government (the german government) as one I would entrust my money to, so it should be pretty fucking obvious the argument never was about government vs private, but rather our government vs private. > Can you provide counterexamples? If you look, there is plenty of competency in both sectors. Yes, I can provide counterexamples, but that I'm not gonna beat up your straw man for you. There is plenty of competency in both sectors, but you can't deny that if my money goes to the US government, that a significantly large portion of it will go to extremely bad ideas, such as blowing arabs up and funding the militaries of foreign governments that will help blow up more arabs, subsidizing millionaire farmers, subsidizing automobile travel, creating laws that imprison people for victimless crimes and building the expensive prisons to house them for mandatory minimum amounts of time, etc. Sure, we democratically elected this shit, but we could democratically elect any pile of shit and it would still be a pile of shit. I see no utilitarian value in respecting the whims of 51% of the population.

moistgorilla 11y ago

>democratically chosen I think we can both agree that the term "democratically chosen" contains many positive connotations which simply don't apply to the current US government. If I were a billionaire, I personally would do as much as legally possible to keep my money out of the hands of the government and personally seeing that it is used for the betterment of society. Because frankly, the idea that the current US government is effectively spending this money for our betterment is ridiculous.

slavik81 11y ago

The reality is that the details of how money is spent are in the hands of bureaucrats. I trust the guy who wants to use his own money to build a legacy for himself. He has more motivation to get results than a government bureaucrat making decisions about spending someone else's money.

HiLo 11y ago
This is entirely subjective. What about those who devote their lives to a cause and go into government? Your money is better than their passion? This line of logic would suggest mercenaries are always have more incentive than soldiers.
- slavik81 11y ago
  I know many people who work in government. They do their job and they take home their pay. Nothing more. If they became personally invested in the outcome of their work, they'd probably eventually quit, because they have little ability to actually make a difference.
  - HiLo 11y ago
    Hey, did you know that's 95% of the private sector, too?
    - slavik81 11y ago
      Indeed. Part of the difference is that I can start my own company in which I do have control. I cannot start my own government.
Retra 11y ago
You trust the guy? Well, I don't. How about we vote on it.
- slavik81 11y ago
  Federal elections occur every two years. You've already voted on it.

moultano 11y ago

Ensemble models always win. The democratically chosen already have almost all of the power. It's ok that a few other people have a little as a hedge in case that works better.

bmelton 11y ago

> wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen, versus billionaires Sure. If you want your money to go to the causes that everybody else supports, then absolutely, you should give more money to the government. However, if you want the money to go to underfunded fields, or areas in which the government doesn't support at all, then you're left with making contributions to non-governmental charities or organizations. I regularly donate to the EFF, ACLU, SAF, CBLDF, and St. Jude, Habitat for Humanity, among others. Of that list, only St. Jude and Habitat could be arguably better spent through direct taxation. It's possible that the government does more for children's cancer and housing the homeless than those charities do -- it is not possible that the government does a better job of acting as a watchdog agency for the government than the EFF, ACLU, SAF or CBLDF. Beyond that, when I donate directly, I get the satisfaction of knowing that none of the money given goes towards causes I do not support, like war-making, privacy violations, etc.