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I very much understand the frustration on display here about the setback to science from this decision. But (admitting up front that I don't know a lot about th

by Steuard 11y ago

I very much understand the frustration on display here about the setback to science from this decision. But (admitting up front that I don't know a lot about the specific cultural context) I'm surprised by the lack of sympathy being shown for the people who evidently hold this space sacred. All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact that this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures. Pretty much every step of the displacement and marginalization of native peoples in history was seen as perfectly justified by the Western societies carrying it out. Now, personally, I'm much happier with the argument "we must seize this unique scientific opportunity" than with "we must seize these natural resources for a profit". But I expect that from the point of view of the native community, the result feels pretty much the same either way. I'm not happy with the pattern in Western history of condoning this sort of imperialism, and I'd very much like us as a society to quit it. (And for the record, I can't shake the feeling that if it turned out that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem had turned out to be the ideal site for this telescope, most people would not be so immediately dismissive of the voices raised in opposition to building it there. Heck, I even expect there would be more sympathy if the best place for the telescope were a "secular sacred site" like Mount Rushmore: "Don't make Honest Abe wear a flying saucer for a hat!" the nation would cry, and nobody would accuse them of "tribalism".)

CamperBob2 11y ago
All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact that this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures (Shrug) I don't see those "other cultures" making investments in time, money, and education to try to understand the secrets of the Universe. In this case, their representatives appear to be doing the opposite. In my book, that makes the native Hawaiian culture inferior to my own. Sue me.
- Steko 11y ago
  > In my book, that makes the native Hawaiian culture inferior to my own. I'm sure if you took honest stock of your culture there would be no shortage of episodes many times more egregious than this forced permit reevaluation and by your own shoddy reasoning that would make native Hawaiian culture superior to your own.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    No, that's a completely irrelevant point that doesn't address mine in the slightest. If we had to be perfect before calling out bad behavior, we'd never be able to hire any police.
    - Steko 11y ago
      Your argument takes the form, 'culture x does a, culture y doesn't do a, a is good therefore culture x is better than culture y' The argument is clearly ridiculous on it's face and as I said above trivially disproved by any number of direct and inverse examples.
      - CamperBob2 11y ago
        All you have to do is imagine what kind of computer you'd be using if it were left up to the culture in question to develop it. It would probably have wooden beads on wires.
        Steko 11y ago
        Following that logic we'd all be running around illiterate if we had to wait for Northern Europeans to invent writing. Something tells me you are not going to embrace the idea that your ancestors are just free riding off the great accomplishments of the Iraqis and Egyptians.
        CamperBob2 11y ago
        You're right, there's a lot to be said for growing one's own culture by appropriating elements of other cultures that work. "Free riding" on Western culture is exactly what the Hawaiians should be doing in this instance. Instead they've chosen to shove a potato up the exhaust pipe, and nobody gets to ride. It's pretty ironic of you to cite Muslim and Egyptian cultures in defense of your own point. What have they done for us in the last 500 years? How long are they going to "free ride," as you put it?
xiaoma 11y ago
>this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures >...justified by the Western societies >...the pattern in Western history You should try living in the East. A similar scenario in China would not go down the same way. The telescope would go up and there would be very little hand wringing involved in the decision.
- Steuard 11y ago
  Fair point: Europe and its descendants don't have anything like a monopoly on imperialism (and China in particular has that history going back a long, long time). I'm presumably focused on European imperialism because it's my heritage, and because Europe's age of imperial expansion has played a particularly widespread role in world history for the past few centuries. And also, because it's the one involved in the conflict in question here. It's probably worth considering how these attitudes evolve over time, too. I'd guess that a hundred years ago, the U.S. wouldn't have done much hand wringing in this case, either.
whoopdedo 11y ago
Are you being intentionally ironic by bringing up Mount Rushmore? http://www.economist.com/node/11848993 http://www.economist.com/node/11848993
- Steuard 11y ago
  Oh, wow. No, that was entirely accidental, but it shouldn't have been: I know that history reasonably well (but evidently only when I stop to think about it, which I suppose only serves to illustrate my point).

by Steuard 11y ago

CamperBob2 11y ago

All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact that this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures (Shrug) I don't see those "other cultures" making investments in time, money, and education to try to understand the secrets of the Universe. In this case, their representatives appear to be doing the opposite. In my book, that makes the native Hawaiian culture inferior to my own. Sue me.

Steko 11y ago
> In my book, that makes the native Hawaiian culture inferior to my own. I'm sure if you took honest stock of your culture there would be no shortage of episodes many times more egregious than this forced permit reevaluation and by your own shoddy reasoning that would make native Hawaiian culture superior to your own.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  No, that's a completely irrelevant point that doesn't address mine in the slightest. If we had to be perfect before calling out bad behavior, we'd never be able to hire any police.
  - Steko 11y ago
    Your argument takes the form, 'culture x does a, culture y doesn't do a, a is good therefore culture x is better than culture y' The argument is clearly ridiculous on it's face and as I said above trivially disproved by any number of direct and inverse examples.
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      All you have to do is imagine what kind of computer you'd be using if it were left up to the culture in question to develop it. It would probably have wooden beads on wires.
      - Steko 11y ago
        Following that logic we'd all be running around illiterate if we had to wait for Northern Europeans to invent writing. Something tells me you are not going to embrace the idea that your ancestors are just free riding off the great accomplishments of the Iraqis and Egyptians.
        CamperBob2 11y ago
        You're right, there's a lot to be said for growing one's own culture by appropriating elements of other cultures that work. "Free riding" on Western culture is exactly what the Hawaiians should be doing in this instance. Instead they've chosen to shove a potato up the exhaust pipe, and nobody gets to ride. It's pretty ironic of you to cite Muslim and Egyptian cultures in defense of your own point. What have they done for us in the last 500 years? How long are they going to "free ride," as you put it?

xiaoma 11y ago

>this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures >...justified by the Western societies >...the pattern in Western history You should try living in the East. A similar scenario in China would not go down the same way. The telescope would go up and there would be very little hand wringing involved in the decision.

Steuard 11y ago
Fair point: Europe and its descendants don't have anything like a monopoly on imperialism (and China in particular has that history going back a long, long time). I'm presumably focused on European imperialism because it's my heritage, and because Europe's age of imperial expansion has played a particularly widespread role in world history for the past few centuries. And also, because it's the one involved in the conflict in question here. It's probably worth considering how these attitudes evolve over time, too. I'd guess that a hundred years ago, the U.S. wouldn't have done much hand wringing in this case, either.

whoopdedo 11y ago

Are you being intentionally ironic by bringing up Mount Rushmore? http://www.economist.com/node/11848993 http://www.economist.com/node/11848993

Steuard 11y ago
Oh, wow. No, that was entirely accidental, but it shouldn't have been: I know that history reasonably well (but evidently only when I stop to think about it, which I suppose only serves to illustrate my point).