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This site outlines the actions that tmt takes to improve Hawaii and science education in general... 300 jobs. 26 million per year in revenue. 1 million per year

by dstyrb 11y ago

This site outlines the actions that tmt takes to improve Hawaii and science education in general... 300 jobs. 26 million per year in revenue. 1 million per year just in paying a lease, 800k of which is earmarked to pay for conservation of the mountain. The site was deliberately moved to a suboptimal location so that it would be less visible to people. Includes a statement regarding this HSC hearing. http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org http://www.maunakeaandtmt.org I honestly don't see how telescopes are disrespectful to begin with. Stonehenge, the Pyramids, countless other ancient monoliths were astronomical temples... These are literally the temples of the one 'religion' all humanity shares-- the love of space and the stars. Whatever. Good job random celebrities on twitter who have never even been to Mauna Kea; you've successfully done whatever this is. We will in fact “take [our] toys and play in another sandbox,” because some of us actually care about the past and future of humanity as a race and our place in the stars.

Steko 11y ago
Just because 'science is good' doesn't mean it gets to trump the normal permitting procedures and rule of law.
- dstyrb 11y ago
  I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production. It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been underway with this specific site in mind. There are hundreds of people working on this. Tens to hundreds of thousands of man hours are wasted if this decision stands. PhD work on "site predictions for TMT" "Error estimations for TMT" "Optic Performance for TMT" etc. etc. are worthless. This isn't a back-yard telescope you just prop up anywhere. This is a precision instrument that was designed for this exact spot. The optics designed Mauna Kea atmospheric seeing; the dome designed for Mauna Kea atmospheric temperature, air pressure and turbulence; the survey strategy planned for Mauna Kea weather patterns and sky visibility.
  - Steko 11y ago
    Yes they had the permit but it was issued in violation of apparent rules. Appeals to lost investment and appeals to how great science is don't automatically trump this or do you want to live in a world where one government bureaucrat's wrong decision is set in stone?
    - deleted 11y ago
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    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - titzer 11y ago
    I don't disagree with your overall sentiment here; this is disappointing. But if all this is true, then there's been real failures of risk analysis and over-specialization to a particular site. They should have a backup plan, considering how contentious this issue has been all the while. In particular there should be some adaptations that can be made to the main designs that, though not optimal, could make it feasible to relocate, or to replace one of the (many!) existing telescopes on the mountain.
    - SIMBAD2000 11y ago
      For a start the telescope isn't actually that specialised, while the facility structure will have been designed for MKs typical wind patterns little else is site specific and it could be changed. Metal hasn't been cut yet. No survey strategy exists, it's too early for that. The problem is not that the telescope wouldn't work anywhere else but that it's really too late in the day to be making such changes. A change in site will set the telescope back about 5 or more years, they will have to start site selection again because their other location choice is now taken by another telescope. All the other sites surveyed were in Hawaii. There is nowhere else in the US of this quality. A new site will also likely cost much more as few are developed. So the telescope will lose at least 5 years on it's competitors and all the cost of starting again and keeping everyone employed 5 more years. It may well miss out on key work in that time, it will probably loose the ability to do joint observations with the James Webb Space Telescope. So even if it moved it will come much later than the larger European telescope and may have to be scaled back in performance after all the cash it will waste in the site swap. It may loose out on some early science or some science cases altogether if downsized. The real problem is it may not survive the change. Some countries currently signed up will decide to withdraw and back other projects which can be delivered on time. It may be that the cost of the change is large and too many people leave to continue the project. That is not some hypothetical, projects like this which lose momentum often fail. More money could be found but that's unlikely. If it cannot be built here the whole project is seriously at risk and it will sacrifice science considerably even if it does survive.
radio4fan 11y ago
> We will in fact “take [our] toys and play in another sandbox,” because some of us actually care about the past and future of humanity as a race and our place in the stars. Take it to La Palma, please. It needs the investment and construction jobs. Probably a few retired German hippies will complain, but no Palmeros. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_de_los_Muchachos_Observatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_de_los_Muchachos_Observa...

by dstyrb 11y ago

Steko 11y ago

Just because 'science is good' doesn't mean it gets to trump the normal permitting procedures and rule of law.

dstyrb 11y ago
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production. It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been underway with this specific site in mind. There are hundreds of people working on this. Tens to hundreds of thousands of man hours are wasted if this decision stands. PhD work on "site predictions for TMT" "Error estimations for TMT" "Optic Performance for TMT" etc. etc. are worthless. This isn't a back-yard telescope you just prop up anywhere. This is a precision instrument that was designed for this exact spot. The optics designed Mauna Kea atmospheric seeing; the dome designed for Mauna Kea atmospheric temperature, air pressure and turbulence; the survey strategy planned for Mauna Kea weather patterns and sky visibility.
- Steko 11y ago
  Yes they had the permit but it was issued in violation of apparent rules. Appeals to lost investment and appeals to how great science is don't automatically trump this or do you want to live in a world where one government bureaucrat's wrong decision is set in stone?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- titzer 11y ago
  I don't disagree with your overall sentiment here; this is disappointing. But if all this is true, then there's been real failures of risk analysis and over-specialization to a particular site. They should have a backup plan, considering how contentious this issue has been all the while. In particular there should be some adaptations that can be made to the main designs that, though not optimal, could make it feasible to relocate, or to replace one of the (many!) existing telescopes on the mountain.
  - SIMBAD2000 11y ago
    For a start the telescope isn't actually that specialised, while the facility structure will have been designed for MKs typical wind patterns little else is site specific and it could be changed. Metal hasn't been cut yet. No survey strategy exists, it's too early for that. The problem is not that the telescope wouldn't work anywhere else but that it's really too late in the day to be making such changes. A change in site will set the telescope back about 5 or more years, they will have to start site selection again because their other location choice is now taken by another telescope. All the other sites surveyed were in Hawaii. There is nowhere else in the US of this quality. A new site will also likely cost much more as few are developed. So the telescope will lose at least 5 years on it's competitors and all the cost of starting again and keeping everyone employed 5 more years. It may well miss out on key work in that time, it will probably loose the ability to do joint observations with the James Webb Space Telescope. So even if it moved it will come much later than the larger European telescope and may have to be scaled back in performance after all the cash it will waste in the site swap. It may loose out on some early science or some science cases altogether if downsized. The real problem is it may not survive the change. Some countries currently signed up will decide to withdraw and back other projects which can be delivered on time. It may be that the cost of the change is large and too many people leave to continue the project. That is not some hypothetical, projects like this which lose momentum often fail. More money could be found but that's unlikely. If it cannot be built here the whole project is seriously at risk and it will sacrifice science considerably even if it does survive.

radio4fan 11y ago

> We will in fact “take [our] toys and play in another sandbox,” because some of us actually care about the past and future of humanity as a race and our place in the stars. Take it to La Palma, please. It needs the investment and construction jobs. Probably a few retired German hippies will complain, but no Palmeros. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_de_los_Muchachos_Observatory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roque_de_los_Muchachos_Observa...