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So how do you handle the situation if a Korean manager is wrong about something? That culture sounds like it would be extremely damaging to conductive effectiv

by Pyxl101 11y ago

So how do you handle the situation if a Korean manager is wrong about something? That culture sounds like it would be extremely damaging to conductive effective business.

hardwaresofton 11y ago
This phenomenon appears in more than one culture, and I think in just about every culture it is damaging to conducting effective business, but not _extremely_. Only companies big enough to endure this kind of damage (or smart enough to make sure it doesn't happen) are the ones that make it. If you're running a startup with 3-5 people, and someone is wrong about something, chances are the stakes are much much larger than a 100 person company. As such, you can't afford to have this kind of culture at startup scale, but you can, at large scale, because everyone gets more chances to be wrong (and have the company stay afloat). Then you start thinking about 1,000+, 10,000+, 100,000+ people companies and you can imagine how many small inefficiencies/mistakes like this companies can withstand. Depending on where you work in the US, there are still managers/bosses that don't like to be contradicted, because of some perception of loss of authority/power/credibility/etc (and most likely some personal insecurity).
MrApathy 11y ago
Not just business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 In most cultures co-pilots are encouraged to speak out when the pilot has or is about to make a mistake. There were several Korean Air crashes where the co-pilots knew the pilot was wrong and did nothing, in some cases costing them their lives. After recognizing this there was a strong push to change the culture at Korean Air, but I don't know that this was a lesson brought over to other industries.
- jpatokal 11y ago
  Yes, that's Malcolm Gladwell's theory. The facts are, as ever, more complicated: http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwe...
  - shard 11y ago
    Here's another layer of complication. Gladwell twists the truth a bit to make a good story, however AskAKorean also twists the truth a bit to make a good refutation. Based on the transcript that AskAKorea posted, it's very clear that the first officer is acting deferentially to the pilot. Specifically, the first officer uses polite speech with the pilot, and the pilot uses familiar speech with the first officer. This indicates quite a big social status gap. As an example, in my company (I am working in Korea), neither my manager nor my manager's manager uses familiar speech with me, I'd have to go up 3 levels for that to start happening. What Gladwell mentioned in his book about hierarchy does not feel exaggerated, and there's likely a large grain of truth to Gladwell's representation of what happened. Also, if you look through AskAKorean's previous blogs, you can notice a fairly nationalistic streak in his posts, which may explain his strong opinions regarding Gladwell's assertions.
jonknee 11y ago
> So how do you handle the situation if a Korean manager is wrong about something? Do the wrong thing that your manager requests and suffer the consequences.
subnaught 11y ago
The same things go on in America, just under slightly different guises, I would say. This is a not-uncommon pattern: 0) There is a problem that needs to be fixed. 1) Boss recommends A 2) Engineer knows A won't work, but they try it anyway 3) A doesn't work, so they stay up late implementing B. (Of course, they wouldn't have had to stay up late had they just been allowed to implement B first...) 4) B works 5) Boss takes the credit 6) After years of making the boss look good, engineer gets promoted

by Pyxl101 11y ago

So how do you handle the situation if a Korean manager is wrong about something? That culture sounds like it would be extremely damaging to conductive effective business.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

This phenomenon appears in more than one culture, and I think in just about every culture it is damaging to conducting effective business, but not _extremely_. Only companies big enough to endure this kind of damage (or smart enough to make sure it doesn't happen) are the ones that make it. If you're running a startup with 3-5 people, and someone is wrong about something, chances are the stakes are much much larger than a 100 person company. As such, you can't afford to have this kind of culture at startup scale, but you can, at large scale, because everyone gets more chances to be wrong (and have the company stay afloat). Then you start thinking about 1,000+, 10,000+, 100,000+ people companies and you can imagine how many small inefficiencies/mistakes like this companies can withstand. Depending on where you work in the US, there are still managers/bosses that don't like to be contradicted, because of some perception of loss of authority/power/credibility/etc (and most likely some personal insecurity).

MrApathy 11y ago

Not just business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509 In most cultures co-pilots are encouraged to speak out when the pilot has or is about to make a mistake. There were several Korean Air crashes where the co-pilots knew the pilot was wrong and did nothing, in some cases costing them their lives. After recognizing this there was a strong push to change the culture at Korean Air, but I don't know that this was a lesson brought over to other industries.

jpatokal 11y ago
Yes, that's Malcolm Gladwell's theory. The facts are, as ever, more complicated: http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwe...
- shard 11y ago
  Here's another layer of complication. Gladwell twists the truth a bit to make a good story, however AskAKorean also twists the truth a bit to make a good refutation. Based on the transcript that AskAKorea posted, it's very clear that the first officer is acting deferentially to the pilot. Specifically, the first officer uses polite speech with the pilot, and the pilot uses familiar speech with the first officer. This indicates quite a big social status gap. As an example, in my company (I am working in Korea), neither my manager nor my manager's manager uses familiar speech with me, I'd have to go up 3 levels for that to start happening. What Gladwell mentioned in his book about hierarchy does not feel exaggerated, and there's likely a large grain of truth to Gladwell's representation of what happened. Also, if you look through AskAKorean's previous blogs, you can notice a fairly nationalistic streak in his posts, which may explain his strong opinions regarding Gladwell's assertions.

jonknee 11y ago

> So how do you handle the situation if a Korean manager is wrong about something? Do the wrong thing that your manager requests and suffer the consequences.

subnaught 11y ago

The same things go on in America, just under slightly different guises, I would say. This is a not-uncommon pattern: 0) There is a problem that needs to be fixed. 1) Boss recommends A 2) Engineer knows A won't work, but they try it anyway 3) A doesn't work, so they stay up late implementing B. (Of course, they wouldn't have had to stay up late had they just been allowed to implement B first...) 4) B works 5) Boss takes the credit 6) After years of making the boss look good, engineer gets promoted