5 ms·

Cultivating Failure

29 points by bootload 17y ago

spamizbad 17y ago
There's a very solid take-down of this article by Alissa Novoselick at Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/food/2010/01/15/school_gardens_strike_back_at_flanagan/index.html http://www.salon.com/food/2010/01/15/school_gardens_strike_b...
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  When the page loaded, the site started shouting at me through my speakers about something National Geographic wanted me to see about some kind of law enforcement group that has something to do with illegal immigration. I think. I actually swore at the page as I was desperately playing "find the close button on this ad." I finally just closed the tab, while it was still shouting at me. Sheesh. I'm actually still tense. It really pissed me off, I have an aversion to being shouted at.
  - vdm 17y ago
    Thank you for the warning. Browsers should provide users with the same opt-in control over audio that they do over pop-up windows. Unsolicited audio is a scourge.
camccann 17y ago
The article seems to be more interested in mocking other people's social/political ideas than talking about the actual problem, viz., ineffective schooling. Smugly telling someone that what they're doing is a bad idea doesn't really accomplish much, even (perhaps especially!) when it's true. Why not talk about how to make things better? I tend to suspect the answer to that is "because the author is more interested in political cheap shots than in problem solving", but I admit to being reflexively cynical about such things.
- gojomo 17y ago
  She does mention that other charter schools that skip the gardens get better results. And what she's proposing is clear, too: replace gardening time with more instruction in traditional subjects. If there were some evidence gardens help achievement, or if it was just replacing other necessary 'rec' time, they'd be fine. But she reports there's never been any evidence -- beyond the supporters' anecdotal warm fuzzies -- that gardens fix educational gaps, and strongly implies garden time is trading off against more beneficial instruction. So I appreciated the strong point of view and ironic opening scenario -- given her beliefs it's appropriate to be a bit caustic.
  - bootload 17y ago
    "... If there were some evidence gardens help achievement... she reports there's never been any evidence -- beyond the supporters' anecdotal warm fuzzies ..." Yet there is ample evidence that obesity in school age students is on the rise. It's in the UK where a dyslexic chef decided to do something about it, "Feed me Better" ~ http://www.jamieoliver.com/school-dinners/my-manifesto http://www.jamieoliver.com/school-dinners/my-manifesto It doesn't matter if its removing "junk food" from school menus and revising them with healthier alternatives or creating gardens outside to show how food is grown. "... What evidence do we have that participation in one of these programs—so enthusiastically supported, so uncritically championed—improves a child’s chances of doing well on the state tests that will determine his or her future ..." To not see the link between better understanding food, nutrition, health and learning shows a fixed and narrow mindset.
    - gcheong 17y ago
      To not be willing to let a theory stand or fall according to empirically gathered evidence shows a fixed and narrow mindset.
    - gojomo 17y ago
      I can see a plausible link between garden-food-awareness and learning or health. But what weight should that link be assigned, compared to everything else? That is, would students with weak reading and math skills be better served by an hour in garden-education or an hour of other classroom work? Does garden-education reduce childhood obesity? Answering those questions requires evidence, not just an attractive theory (or appeal to a 'broad mindset'). The author reports there is no hard evidence proving gardens benefit students, and provides some testimony that schools without gardens do more for their students.
ranprieur 17y ago
Does this person really not understand the difference between picking someone else's food under slave-like conditions, and learning to grow your own food?
- skmurphy 17y ago
  Her point is that educational basics are more important for academically at risk children than learning how to garden.
jay_kyburz 17y ago
I haven't heard of this School Garden movement before, but despite this article it sounds great! I'd love my kids to have an opportunity to do this at school here in Australia. There is nothing more satisfying than picking some fresh tomatoes or a big zucchini out of my garden. You all should try it!
- bootload 17y ago
  If you are in Melbourne you can take a look at Stephanie Alexander's [0] effort setting up Kitchen Garden Foundation. [1] There are gardens in Collingwood ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157607256687360/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157607256687360... and St.Kilda and a few more places. Alternatively you can investigate how to get your school (Victoria only) ~ http://www.kitchengardenfoundation.org.au/grants-goforyourlife.shtml http://www.kitchengardenfoundation.org.au/grants-goforyourli... The "garden" to "plate", slow food idea is important for food literacy. [0] http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm [1] http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm
RyanMcGreal 17y ago
Is this the same Caitlin Flanagan who was obsessing a few years ago over Rainbow Parties?
- gabrielroth 17y ago
  Yup.
ctrager 17y ago
Caitlin Flanagan is one of my favorite essayists, and here is my favorite essay of hers, "The Wifely Duty": http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200301/flanagan http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200301/flanagan If you are young or single or childless, it's not for you. Yet.
- s3graham 17y ago
  I'm (we're) still childless for a few months, but that was great, thanks!
bootload 17y ago
"... The cruel trick has been pulled on this benighted child by an agglomeration of foodies and educational reformers who are propelled by a vacuous if well-meaning ideology that is responsible for robbing an increasing number of American schoolchildren of hours they might other wise have spent reading important books or learning higher math (attaining the cultural achievements, in other words, that have lifted uncounted generations of human beings out of the desperate daily scrabble to wrest sustenance from dirt) ..." There is great irony of this statement. In Australia we have high rates of obesity ~ http://www.google.com/search?q=australia+obesity http://www.google.com/search?q=australia+obesity a combination of low levels of physical activity and poor diet. Mens sana in corpore sano What you eat is important. It is far better to regulate fitness through a combination of good nutrition than exercise. So understanding what to eat, how to grow it and cook is just as important as traditional education.
skmurphy 17y ago
Key quote is by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Sizer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Sizer from Horace's Compromise If students have yet to meet the fundamental standards of literacy, numeracy and civic understanding, programs should focus exclusively on these. Some critics will argue that the school must go beyond these subjects to hold the interest of the pupils...but a fourteen year old who is semi-literate is an adolescent in need of intensive, focused attention.
s3graham 17y ago
Good lord, did the The Atlantic have to lay off its editors? I agree with the last paragraph, but that's really all you want to read, unless you're looking for verbose ranting and raving about other people's politics.
patio11 17y ago
A quote that has stuck with me for 20 years now, by a Mexican immigrant who was not in favor of bilingual education: "They teach my son to be a busboy or waiter. I want them to teach him English, to teach him to be a doctor or a lawyer." Now, I know, satisfying the social urges of yuppie parents to have their kids get their hands dirty (in a carefully supervised way with a bottle of disinfectant close at hand and absolutely no chemical pesticide or genetically modified seed used) probably won't hurt anyone. Those kids are going to be decently educated in spite of it all. But for the kids who actually need school to get ahead in life, can we focus on teaching them to be doctors/lawyers, etc? Incidentally, I am reminded of a Chris Rock comment regarding Martin Luther King Blvd: if you attend a school named Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School, you probably can't afford to have your education planned by trendy educators.

29 points by bootload 17y ago

There's a very solid take-down of this article by Alissa Novoselick at Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/food/2010/01/15/school_gardens_strike_back_at_flanagan/index.html http://www.salon.com/food/2010/01/15/school_gardens_strike_b...

nfnaaron 17y ago
When the page loaded, the site started shouting at me through my speakers about something National Geographic wanted me to see about some kind of law enforcement group that has something to do with illegal immigration. I think. I actually swore at the page as I was desperately playing "find the close button on this ad." I finally just closed the tab, while it was still shouting at me. Sheesh. I'm actually still tense. It really pissed me off, I have an aversion to being shouted at.
- vdm 17y ago
  Thank you for the warning. Browsers should provide users with the same opt-in control over audio that they do over pop-up windows. Unsolicited audio is a scourge.

camccann 17y ago

The article seems to be more interested in mocking other people's social/political ideas than talking about the actual problem, viz., ineffective schooling. Smugly telling someone that what they're doing is a bad idea doesn't really accomplish much, even (perhaps especially!) when it's true. Why not talk about how to make things better? I tend to suspect the answer to that is "because the author is more interested in political cheap shots than in problem solving", but I admit to being reflexively cynical about such things.

gojomo 17y ago
She does mention that other charter schools that skip the gardens get better results. And what she's proposing is clear, too: replace gardening time with more instruction in traditional subjects. If there were some evidence gardens help achievement, or if it was just replacing other necessary 'rec' time, they'd be fine. But she reports there's never been any evidence -- beyond the supporters' anecdotal warm fuzzies -- that gardens fix educational gaps, and strongly implies garden time is trading off against more beneficial instruction. So I appreciated the strong point of view and ironic opening scenario -- given her beliefs it's appropriate to be a bit caustic.
- bootload 17y ago
  "... If there were some evidence gardens help achievement... she reports there's never been any evidence -- beyond the supporters' anecdotal warm fuzzies ..." Yet there is ample evidence that obesity in school age students is on the rise. It's in the UK where a dyslexic chef decided to do something about it, "Feed me Better" ~ http://www.jamieoliver.com/school-dinners/my-manifesto http://www.jamieoliver.com/school-dinners/my-manifesto It doesn't matter if its removing "junk food" from school menus and revising them with healthier alternatives or creating gardens outside to show how food is grown. "... What evidence do we have that participation in one of these programs—so enthusiastically supported, so uncritically championed—improves a child’s chances of doing well on the state tests that will determine his or her future ..." To not see the link between better understanding food, nutrition, health and learning shows a fixed and narrow mindset.
  - gcheong 17y ago
    To not be willing to let a theory stand or fall according to empirically gathered evidence shows a fixed and narrow mindset.
  - gojomo 17y ago
    I can see a plausible link between garden-food-awareness and learning or health. But what weight should that link be assigned, compared to everything else? That is, would students with weak reading and math skills be better served by an hour in garden-education or an hour of other classroom work? Does garden-education reduce childhood obesity? Answering those questions requires evidence, not just an attractive theory (or appeal to a 'broad mindset'). The author reports there is no hard evidence proving gardens benefit students, and provides some testimony that schools without gardens do more for their students.

ranprieur 17y ago

Does this person really not understand the difference between picking someone else's food under slave-like conditions, and learning to grow your own food?

skmurphy 17y ago
Her point is that educational basics are more important for academically at risk children than learning how to garden.

jay_kyburz 17y ago

I haven't heard of this School Garden movement before, but despite this article it sounds great! I'd love my kids to have an opportunity to do this at school here in Australia. There is nothing more satisfying than picking some fresh tomatoes or a big zucchini out of my garden. You all should try it!

bootload 17y ago
If you are in Melbourne you can take a look at Stephanie Alexander's [0] effort setting up Kitchen Garden Foundation. [1] There are gardens in Collingwood ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157607256687360/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/bootload/sets/72157607256687360... and St.Kilda and a few more places. Alternatively you can investigate how to get your school (Victoria only) ~ http://www.kitchengardenfoundation.org.au/grants-goforyourlife.shtml http://www.kitchengardenfoundation.org.au/grants-goforyourli... The "garden" to "plate", slow food idea is important for food literacy. [0] http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm [1] http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm http://www.stephaniealexander.com.au/garden.htm

RyanMcGreal 17y ago

Is this the same Caitlin Flanagan who was obsessing a few years ago over Rainbow Parties?

gabrielroth 17y ago
Yup.

ctrager 17y ago

Caitlin Flanagan is one of my favorite essayists, and here is my favorite essay of hers, "The Wifely Duty": http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200301/flanagan http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200301/flanagan If you are young or single or childless, it's not for you. Yet.

s3graham 17y ago
I'm (we're) still childless for a few months, but that was great, thanks!

bootload 17y ago

"... The cruel trick has been pulled on this benighted child by an agglomeration of foodies and educational reformers who are propelled by a vacuous if well-meaning ideology that is responsible for robbing an increasing number of American schoolchildren of hours they might other wise have spent reading important books or learning higher math (attaining the cultural achievements, in other words, that have lifted uncounted generations of human beings out of the desperate daily scrabble to wrest sustenance from dirt) ..." There is great irony of this statement. In Australia we have high rates of obesity ~ http://www.google.com/search?q=australia+obesity http://www.google.com/search?q=australia+obesity a combination of low levels of physical activity and poor diet. Mens sana in corpore sano What you eat is important. It is far better to regulate fitness through a combination of good nutrition than exercise. So understanding what to eat, how to grow it and cook is just as important as traditional education.

skmurphy 17y ago

Key quote is by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Sizer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Sizer from Horace's Compromise If students have yet to meet the fundamental standards of literacy, numeracy and civic understanding, programs should focus exclusively on these. Some critics will argue that the school must go beyond these subjects to hold the interest of the pupils...but a fourteen year old who is semi-literate is an adolescent in need of intensive, focused attention.

s3graham 17y ago

Good lord, did the The Atlantic have to lay off its editors? I agree with the last paragraph, but that's really all you want to read, unless you're looking for verbose ranting and raving about other people's politics.

patio11 17y ago

A quote that has stuck with me for 20 years now, by a Mexican immigrant who was not in favor of bilingual education: "They teach my son to be a busboy or waiter. I want them to teach him English, to teach him to be a doctor or a lawyer." Now, I know, satisfying the social urges of yuppie parents to have their kids get their hands dirty (in a carefully supervised way with a bottle of disinfectant close at hand and absolutely no chemical pesticide or genetically modified seed used) probably won't hurt anyone. Those kids are going to be decently educated in spite of it all. But for the kids who actually need school to get ahead in life, can we focus on teaching them to be doctors/lawyers, etc? Incidentally, I am reminded of a Chris Rock comment regarding Martin Luther King Blvd: if you attend a school named Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School, you probably can't afford to have your education planned by trendy educators.