4 ms·

> Downvote me all you want: it won't change the facts. I downvoted you because you are simply incorrect about the facts. Black people make up 12% of the US po

by jMyles 11y ago

> Downvote me all you want: it won't change the facts. I downvoted you because you are simply incorrect about the facts. Black people make up 12% of the US population, and use illicit drugs at approximately a proportionate rate. Yet, black people make up more than half of the prison population of drug offenders, and nearly two thirds of those under any form of criminal supervision for drug offenses. Why are you saying otherwise?

kps 11y ago
I upvoted him because it's difficult to read what he wrote (and I routinely upvote grey comments). HN should decide whether a downvote means ‘I disagree’ or ‘this isn't worth reading’ — ‘I disagree therefore this isn't worth reading’ is incompatible with reasoned discussion.
- jMyles 11y ago
  It's one thing to have a different opinion - I often upvote people with whom I have a different opinion. It's entirely another to make a claim about facts which is not supported - in this case by evidence that is not controversial. It's simply not so that black people commit crimes in proportion with the representation in the criminal justice system. In fact, if poverty and geography are controlled for, ethnicity and race seem to be non-determiners of criminality. This is explained, among many other places, here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-...
- epistasis 11y ago
  "Disagreeing" on facts is not compatible with reasoned discussion too, especially when one couches their opinion in such clearly unreasoned ways such as "go ahead and downvote me." This person knows that they're trolling, and does it anyway.
- simoncion 11y ago
  > I upvoted him because it's difficult to read what he wrote Does this mean that you upvote greytext comments because it makes the text too difficult to read, and you find that upvoting such a comment not infrequently makes it easier for you to read it? If yes, then you might be pleased to know that you can solve the contrast issue by selecting the text with your mouse or whatever other pointing device you use.
- krapp 11y ago
  Unfortunately, Hacker News has decided, and considers the censorship of comments for any reason at all (including no particular reason) to be not only compatible with, but vital to, reasoned discussion. If you prefer to make your own decisions about what comments are worth reading, and use Firefox, here[0] is a userscript that will unfade them. [0]https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93 https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 11y ago
  If you want to read a faded comment more easily, simply click on its timestamp. Please don't vote for that reason.
- doktrin 11y ago
  > HN should decide whether a downvote means ‘I disagree’ or ‘this isn't worth reading' I can't speak for the community at large, but PG has condoned downvotes as a signal of disagreement.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Just hit ctrl-a.
jlarocco 11y ago
Without providing a reference backing up your second sentence your claim is no more believable than the OP's. The reason I mention it is that on average black people tend to be poorer and live in worse neighborhoods, and poor people in bad neighborhoods (of all races) tend to do more drugs. So my expectation would be black people tend to do more drugs than white people, but I still doubt it's enough of a difference to explain the difference in prison population. http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us... Edit: Just to be clear before I'm downvoted into oblivion, I agree that the police and justice system are heavily biased against black people, I'm just not sure that sentence is true.
- jMyles 11y ago
  > poor people in bad neighborhoods (of all races) tend to do more drugs This is not true. This matter has been thoroughly studied - have you a source to back up this claim? Even though the drugs that are often consumed in poor neighborhoods are more likely to be criminalized, they are still used at comparable (and sometimes higher) rates in affluent neighborhoods (along with many other drugs in configurations that aren't prohibited). I don't understand what you are asking me to source - you are the one making the claim. Here's an easy read that lays this stuff out plainly (I already linked it from my other comment, below): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-...
  - lectrick 11y ago
    Correlations with race are highly suspect as well as self-reinforcing. I believe they should be abandoned because the damage they cause (by perpetuating a problem) may be greater than any possible benefit they provide.
    - rewqfdsa 11y ago
      Correlations with race are _facts_. Impartially collected data collated with robust statistical methods results in race falling out of the mix as an important correlate with all sorts of things; we then publish these correlations. Which part should we abandon? Impartial data collection? Robust statistics? Publication of the results? Are you suggesting that certain facts are too dangerous to know?

by jMyles 11y ago

kps 11y ago

I upvoted him because it's difficult to read what he wrote (and I routinely upvote grey comments). HN should decide whether a downvote means ‘I disagree’ or ‘this isn't worth reading’ — ‘I disagree therefore this isn't worth reading’ is incompatible with reasoned discussion.

jMyles 11y ago
It's one thing to have a different opinion - I often upvote people with whom I have a different opinion. It's entirely another to make a claim about facts which is not supported - in this case by evidence that is not controversial. It's simply not so that black people commit crimes in proportion with the representation in the criminal justice system. In fact, if poverty and geography are controlled for, ethnicity and race seem to be non-determiners of criminality. This is explained, among many other places, here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-...
epistasis 11y ago
"Disagreeing" on facts is not compatible with reasoned discussion too, especially when one couches their opinion in such clearly unreasoned ways such as "go ahead and downvote me." This person knows that they're trolling, and does it anyway.
simoncion 11y ago
> I upvoted him because it's difficult to read what he wrote Does this mean that you upvote greytext comments because it makes the text too difficult to read, and you find that upvoting such a comment not infrequently makes it easier for you to read it? If yes, then you might be pleased to know that you can solve the contrast issue by selecting the text with your mouse or whatever other pointing device you use.
krapp 11y ago
Unfortunately, Hacker News has decided, and considers the censorship of comments for any reason at all (including no particular reason) to be not only compatible with, but vital to, reasoned discussion. If you prefer to make your own decisions about what comments are worth reading, and use Firefox, here[0] is a userscript that will unfade them. [0]https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93 https://gist.github.com/kennethrapp/5b5e413220afb93c9c93
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
dang 11y ago
If you want to read a faded comment more easily, simply click on its timestamp. Please don't vote for that reason.
doktrin 11y ago
> HN should decide whether a downvote means ‘I disagree’ or ‘this isn't worth reading' I can't speak for the community at large, but PG has condoned downvotes as a signal of disagreement.
jacquesm 11y ago
Just hit ctrl-a.

jlarocco 11y ago

Without providing a reference backing up your second sentence your claim is no more believable than the OP's. The reason I mention it is that on average black people tend to be poorer and live in worse neighborhoods, and poor people in bad neighborhoods (of all races) tend to do more drugs. So my expectation would be black people tend to do more drugs than white people, but I still doubt it's enough of a difference to explain the difference in prison population. http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us... Edit: Just to be clear before I'm downvoted into oblivion, I agree that the police and justice system are heavily biased against black people, I'm just not sure that sentence is true.

jMyles 11y ago
> poor people in bad neighborhoods (of all races) tend to do more drugs This is not true. This matter has been thoroughly studied - have you a source to back up this claim? Even though the drugs that are often consumed in poor neighborhoods are more likely to be criminalized, they are still used at comparable (and sometimes higher) rates in affluent neighborhoods (along with many other drugs in configurations that aren't prohibited). I don't understand what you are asking me to source - you are the one making the claim. Here's an easy read that lays this stuff out plainly (I already linked it from my other comment, below): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-...
- lectrick 11y ago
  Correlations with race are highly suspect as well as self-reinforcing. I believe they should be abandoned because the damage they cause (by perpetuating a problem) may be greater than any possible benefit they provide.
  - rewqfdsa 11y ago
    Correlations with race are _facts_. Impartially collected data collated with robust statistical methods results in race falling out of the mix as an important correlate with all sorts of things; we then publish these correlations. Which part should we abandon? Impartial data collection? Robust statistics? Publication of the results? Are you suggesting that certain facts are too dangerous to know?