6 ms·

Ask HN: Please review my startup - Accounting for Google Apps

36 points by simonk 17y ago

nomatteus 17y ago
Does this require a Google Apps Premier account, or will it work for the Standard (free) version as well?
- simonk 17y ago
  It works for both versions.
yannis 17y ago
Having a very good background in accounts I wanted to see what the application could do for me. Maybe I missed it but I desperately needed a tour! What is your unique selling proposition? What is Google Application Engine to a non-hacker ie., a business owner? Me thinks it needs work:)
- simonk 17y ago
  Unique selling proposition - For one it's going to be free and for small businesses that is always a really key thing. The other is that it completes your move to the "cloud", Google does your email, documents, file hosting, presentation and we do the accounting for a small business you don't need anything else. So trying to market it to the 1 million+ Google Apps users already out there first that see the benefit of having everything online.
  - arihelgason 17y ago
    Keep in mind that free isn't necessarily a great selling point when marketing business software. Business owners are often reassured by a fee and a contract.
    - simonk 17y ago
      Your right but the small businesses I've talked to even though they are doing well love the free part. Of course there is tons of things to sell as well payroll and taxes being the big ones.
  - yannis 17y ago
    For one it's going to be free and for small businesses that is always a really key thing Your questionnaire on registration asked for how much I was prepared to pay a month. This threw me out :) Perhaps you need to say so somewhere. I also must state that I don't believe that free is the key thing for a small business. I've seen too many small and one large business fold due to not having the right accounting systems in place. In many instances your market actually will be the external Accountant of the business. He will set it up for the Company and maybe give them a bit of a quick training of what to do - rather than keep everything in a shoe box. A lot of the hassle of accounting systems is set-up and statutory returns, end of year wrap-up and so on. You need to bring the features out more prominently.
    - simonk 17y ago
      Thanks, that questionnaire really cemented the idea that free was the good way to go. The problem with selling to the external accountant is usually they try and sell Quickbooks or something and get money from doing that as well. Looking into this though.
      - yannis 17y ago
        You should allow me to give you a bit of a background. In the eighties I got involved with a Package called Pastel (previously known as Pink Software), the external Accountants created most of the demand for it (they never actually sold it or made money out of it), but it made their job easier. You will also be surprised as to how many small businesses need sophisticated accounts. Take for example a pharmacy they probably have more stock items than a supermarket, all with expiration dates etc. Very different for a software start-up or a webshop but that is where the market is. One good selling point is to have good looking paper prints. There is no such thing as paper-less accounting. Please don't take my comments as negative. I think the concept of attacking an established field is a very good one, but you need to give it a hard kick. You don't want to lose the battle. As for free ask any Accountant if he can do your books for free, why should a programmer's time be given out for free? Free trial period, limit accounts to a certain volume etc, I would agree as a marketing strategy.
Vindexus 17y ago
I'd recommend adding a video tour. Right now I don't know exactly what it does without signing up and toying around with it.
- simonk 17y ago
  Thanks, I'm seeing a common theme now that screenshots aren't enough.
  - prawn 17y ago
    I prefer to quickly look through some screenshots than sit through a video. Definitely use both if you can but I wouldn't have video without a screenshot alternative.
    - simonk 17y ago
      Do you have an example of someone using both well?
      - nomatteus 17y ago
        I took a quick look and found a couple I like: http://basecamphq.com/tour http://basecamphq.com/tour -- Highlights each feature with a screenshot, with a link to a demo video. http://www.freshbooks.com/tour.php http://www.freshbooks.com/tour.php -- Screenshot only tour, but shows screenshot for each section of site, then breaks down the features in each section below.
idoh 17y ago
Make sure to pay attention to the details in your screenshots. For example: - slide 1: there are no expenses - slide 2: same price listed for 30 or 3000 boxes of paper - slide 4: improper capitalization: "Box Of paper" The basic idea is that if you can't pay attention to detail on your screenshots, then maybe that flows through for other parts of the app.
- simonk 17y ago
  Great feedback, I was using some test data that I should of gone over more for using it in our main screenshots. Fixed a few of the things you said onto the rest.
juliend2 17y ago
"You data is accessible anywhere with internet access." s/You/Your I found this typo elsewhere in your website so make sure it's corrected ;) But apart from that, nice job.
- simonk 17y ago
  Thank you, I found it a couple of times as well. All fixed.
nobosh 17y ago
I'm in the small business space and took a look at your app. What I'm not getting is, who is your customer?
- simonk 17y ago
  "at Intuit" just a little bit in my space :). My customer is a small business who use Google Apps.
- blasdel 17y ago
  His customer is either fleeing from your products, or has been using Excel / Google Docs to avoid using them in the first place.
cellis 17y ago
Your startup looks great, but do tell what the test-case startup on your home page is selling: they've made $94,600 profit from $94,600 in sales!
- simonk 17y ago
  It's a great business, but they steal the paper.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
buckwild 17y ago
I would love to give this a shot, but I'm going to have a hard time tearing myself away from my excel sheets. I haven't thoroughly searched your site or signed-up yet, but before I do I think it is fitting to ask: is it possible to upload excel sheets or connect it to my google docs spreadsheet?
- simonk 17y ago
  We're still in alpha, but we will be connecting with Google Docs spreadsheets both for entry and output. Looking at another month for what your looking for.
vnorby 17y ago
Small UI considerations: - Top and bottom navs need rollovers, as well as the sign-up button - Support page textbox hover effects are awkward and inconsistent, and the button needs a rollover and a cursor: pointer - Same with the signup page - Re-order your site nav - Home | Sign Up | Login | Blog | Support - Your logo is cool - nice job! - but the "For Google Apps" doesn't fit - As far as I could see in the screenies - your quick search box is an ugly gray. I think white is OK in that situation. - Dashboard needs a padding-top, and you could probably slide the rest of the content over since there's a lot of blank space. - You'll want different icons for different types of actions inside the dashboard. Try reducing the size of the icons and floating the text left OR keeping the size the same but somehow centering the text underneath them. Other than these things that I could see, site is looking great!
jaxn 17y ago
Just curious, did you do this on AppEngine?
- simonk 17y ago
  No, it's missing a few things we need like SSL on our own domain.
patrickmclaren 17y ago
Forgive me if I missed reading it, but how will you be returning a profit?
- simonk 17y ago
  The accounting product will always be free, we'll make money with add-ons like payroll, custom reports, and tax filing.
  - r7000 17y ago
    Payroll may be difficult to move to the cloud. Like HR it is very personal data. Reporting is potentially a big winner. Taxes too. Very interesting project. Good luck!
    - simonk 17y ago
      Tons of people already outsource your payroll which is already in the cloud.
      - r7000 17y ago
        Where I am most companies (from my experience) log on to their bank or other service provider using custom software.
csmeder 17y ago
IMHO I would change the logo. Make it more professional and less cartoony. You asking for people to trust you with details that if mis handled could land them in tax court. Your logo is your first impression. It should leave the impression of professionalism. On the flip side I have spoke with a lot of small business owners - many of them are 2 year olds... so maybe I'm wrong :)
- simonk 17y ago
  I'm going to have to disagree I really like him http://rhinoaccounting.com/rhino.png http://rhinoaccounting.com/rhino.png
portman 17y ago
This scratches an itch for me. You had me at "accounting for Google Apps". However, I tried to sign up with my Google Apps domain. After authenticating with Google, and redirecting, I received this error: https://app.rhinoaccounting.com/gaccount/callback/ https://app.rhinoaccounting.com/gaccount/callback/? Internal Server Error A server error prevented this page from being displayed. The administrator has been notified and will investigate the problem as soon as possible. There were a ton of query string parameters that may or may not be helpful in diagnosing the problem.
- simonk 17y ago
  Can you send me an email simon@rhinocloud.com I've had tons of people signup today without any problems.
qeorge 17y ago
Some small things: - I'm not sure what you mean by "for Google Apps." Do they provide a platform like Zoho that you can plug into or does this simply mean you use their Google login and take advantage of Docs, Gmail, etc? This may be obvious to most, but not to me. - It would be better to use an obviously fake company name, like Acme Paper, on your sample invoices. The way you have it now (with the Rhino Accounting logo) could imply that my invoices will all have your logo on them. (This sounds ridiculous, but we use Quickbooks Online now, and they're quite overzealous about inserting their branding where it doesn't belong) - The second screenshot is confusing. It looks like I'm about to send an invoice to a company named Paper Supplies for several thousand dollars worth of paper. - On the 3rd screenshot, why is the Businesses tab highlighted (3rd tab) but the heading says People (2nd tab)? - As others have pointed out, there's some inconsistent capitalization. Two that I see remaining: - "Data is Secure" (homepage) - "Lake view Furniture" (1st screenshot) - Navigation menu in the top right changes from page to page. Click through the Sign Up flow to see what I mean. - On the blog, your headings are overlapping the date line below - Also on the blog, you're showing ads in the sidebar. I know its a free service, but if this isn't a significant source of revenue I would kill it. - Also on the blog, you have a "Powered By Google App Engine" logo, but on another comment here you've said you are not using App Engine. Which is it?
- simonk 17y ago
  Firstly thanks for all the feedback. 1. The second option. 2. Sounds ridiculous, but will change this. 3. Will make better fake company names. 4. Fixing. 5. Fixing. 6. Ah problem between the website and the application servers (we host them separately). 7. Fixing. 8. It actually has been amazing for the traffic we get. 9. The blog is hosted on the Google App Engine, our actual application is not.
SimonDorfman 17y ago
I'm interested in trying it out for our group (gumbolabs.org, a non-profit corporation, a hackerspace). Can you suggest how one would use your site for these needs?: -manage monthly dues paid by members (each member is a client?) --breakdown of what i mean by "manage": mark each month as paid, be able to easily see who hasn't paid, be able to mark a whole year as paid. -track expenses like rent and internet bill -project into the future so see our financial health thanks!
- simonk 17y ago
  We can do everything except that last one right now. Make each member a client and make your landlord and internet company vendors. Make an invoice for each month (you can make them repeat), then make a receipt when they pay (it can handle them paying half, 3 months, whatever). You can go into a business or see on the dashboard who hasn't paid.
kapauldo 17y ago
Most small businesses have no idea what Google Apps is and why they need it. My advice is, let people try this instantly. Your registration asks for a domain. Hacker News folks understand this, but 99% of small business will abandon. I think you are in a great market and I think small business would gladly pay maybe $30-50/year for this or some kind of volume based payments, like, say over 5,000 journal entries is this price, and over 10,000 is this, etc. Remember, anyone can go to Office Max and buy Peachtree for $30. Online, access anywhere, automatically backed up, sharing with my accountant with one click, there are great great opportunities here for web/cloud based accounting. If you appeal to small businesses cheapness this will do great. I'd eliminate the "Google apps" altogether and just make this work transparently, FWIW. Also, I am a Peachtree expert, have a CPA requirements from school (I abandoned accounting after my first job interview) and I'd be happy to give you more feedback if that's helpful.

36 points by simonk 17y ago

nomatteus 17y ago

Does this require a Google Apps Premier account, or will it work for the Standard (free) version as well?

simonk 17y ago
It works for both versions.

yannis 17y ago

Having a very good background in accounts I wanted to see what the application could do for me. Maybe I missed it but I desperately needed a tour! What is your unique selling proposition? What is Google Application Engine to a non-hacker ie., a business owner? Me thinks it needs work:)

simonk 17y ago
Unique selling proposition - For one it's going to be free and for small businesses that is always a really key thing. The other is that it completes your move to the "cloud", Google does your email, documents, file hosting, presentation and we do the accounting for a small business you don't need anything else. So trying to market it to the 1 million+ Google Apps users already out there first that see the benefit of having everything online.
- arihelgason 17y ago
  Keep in mind that free isn't necessarily a great selling point when marketing business software. Business owners are often reassured by a fee and a contract.
  - simonk 17y ago
    Your right but the small businesses I've talked to even though they are doing well love the free part. Of course there is tons of things to sell as well payroll and taxes being the big ones.
- yannis 17y ago
  For one it's going to be free and for small businesses that is always a really key thing Your questionnaire on registration asked for how much I was prepared to pay a month. This threw me out :) Perhaps you need to say so somewhere. I also must state that I don't believe that free is the key thing for a small business. I've seen too many small and one large business fold due to not having the right accounting systems in place. In many instances your market actually will be the external Accountant of the business. He will set it up for the Company and maybe give them a bit of a quick training of what to do - rather than keep everything in a shoe box. A lot of the hassle of accounting systems is set-up and statutory returns, end of year wrap-up and so on. You need to bring the features out more prominently.
  - simonk 17y ago
    Thanks, that questionnaire really cemented the idea that free was the good way to go. The problem with selling to the external accountant is usually they try and sell Quickbooks or something and get money from doing that as well. Looking into this though.
    - yannis 17y ago
      You should allow me to give you a bit of a background. In the eighties I got involved with a Package called Pastel (previously known as Pink Software), the external Accountants created most of the demand for it (they never actually sold it or made money out of it), but it made their job easier. You will also be surprised as to how many small businesses need sophisticated accounts. Take for example a pharmacy they probably have more stock items than a supermarket, all with expiration dates etc. Very different for a software start-up or a webshop but that is where the market is. One good selling point is to have good looking paper prints. There is no such thing as paper-less accounting. Please don't take my comments as negative. I think the concept of attacking an established field is a very good one, but you need to give it a hard kick. You don't want to lose the battle. As for free ask any Accountant if he can do your books for free, why should a programmer's time be given out for free? Free trial period, limit accounts to a certain volume etc, I would agree as a marketing strategy.

Vindexus 17y ago

I'd recommend adding a video tour. Right now I don't know exactly what it does without signing up and toying around with it.

simonk 17y ago
Thanks, I'm seeing a common theme now that screenshots aren't enough.
- prawn 17y ago
  I prefer to quickly look through some screenshots than sit through a video. Definitely use both if you can but I wouldn't have video without a screenshot alternative.
  - simonk 17y ago
    Do you have an example of someone using both well?
    - nomatteus 17y ago
      I took a quick look and found a couple I like: http://basecamphq.com/tour http://basecamphq.com/tour -- Highlights each feature with a screenshot, with a link to a demo video. http://www.freshbooks.com/tour.php http://www.freshbooks.com/tour.php -- Screenshot only tour, but shows screenshot for each section of site, then breaks down the features in each section below.

idoh 17y ago

Make sure to pay attention to the details in your screenshots. For example: - slide 1: there are no expenses - slide 2: same price listed for 30 or 3000 boxes of paper - slide 4: improper capitalization: "Box Of paper" The basic idea is that if you can't pay attention to detail on your screenshots, then maybe that flows through for other parts of the app.

simonk 17y ago
Great feedback, I was using some test data that I should of gone over more for using it in our main screenshots. Fixed a few of the things you said onto the rest.

juliend2 17y ago

"You data is accessible anywhere with internet access." s/You/Your I found this typo elsewhere in your website so make sure it's corrected ;) But apart from that, nice job.

simonk 17y ago
Thank you, I found it a couple of times as well. All fixed.

nobosh 17y ago

I'm in the small business space and took a look at your app. What I'm not getting is, who is your customer?

simonk 17y ago
"at Intuit" just a little bit in my space :). My customer is a small business who use Google Apps.
blasdel 17y ago
His customer is either fleeing from your products, or has been using Excel / Google Docs to avoid using them in the first place.

cellis 17y ago

Your startup looks great, but do tell what the test-case startup on your home page is selling: they've made $94,600 profit from $94,600 in sales!

simonk 17y ago
It's a great business, but they steal the paper.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]

buckwild 17y ago

I would love to give this a shot, but I'm going to have a hard time tearing myself away from my excel sheets. I haven't thoroughly searched your site or signed-up yet, but before I do I think it is fitting to ask: is it possible to upload excel sheets or connect it to my google docs spreadsheet?

simonk 17y ago
We're still in alpha, but we will be connecting with Google Docs spreadsheets both for entry and output. Looking at another month for what your looking for.

vnorby 17y ago

Small UI considerations: - Top and bottom navs need rollovers, as well as the sign-up button - Support page textbox hover effects are awkward and inconsistent, and the button needs a rollover and a cursor: pointer - Same with the signup page - Re-order your site nav - Home | Sign Up | Login | Blog | Support - Your logo is cool - nice job! - but the "For Google Apps" doesn't fit - As far as I could see in the screenies - your quick search box is an ugly gray. I think white is OK in that situation. - Dashboard needs a padding-top, and you could probably slide the rest of the content over since there's a lot of blank space. - You'll want different icons for different types of actions inside the dashboard. Try reducing the size of the icons and floating the text left OR keeping the size the same but somehow centering the text underneath them. Other than these things that I could see, site is looking great!

jaxn 17y ago

Just curious, did you do this on AppEngine?

simonk 17y ago
No, it's missing a few things we need like SSL on our own domain.

patrickmclaren 17y ago

Forgive me if I missed reading it, but how will you be returning a profit?

simonk 17y ago
The accounting product will always be free, we'll make money with add-ons like payroll, custom reports, and tax filing.
- r7000 17y ago
  Payroll may be difficult to move to the cloud. Like HR it is very personal data. Reporting is potentially a big winner. Taxes too. Very interesting project. Good luck!
  - simonk 17y ago
    Tons of people already outsource your payroll which is already in the cloud.
    - r7000 17y ago
      Where I am most companies (from my experience) log on to their bank or other service provider using custom software.

csmeder 17y ago

IMHO I would change the logo. Make it more professional and less cartoony. You asking for people to trust you with details that if mis handled could land them in tax court. Your logo is your first impression. It should leave the impression of professionalism. On the flip side I have spoke with a lot of small business owners - many of them are 2 year olds... so maybe I'm wrong :)

simonk 17y ago
I'm going to have to disagree I really like him http://rhinoaccounting.com/rhino.png http://rhinoaccounting.com/rhino.png

portman 17y ago

This scratches an itch for me. You had me at "accounting for Google Apps". However, I tried to sign up with my Google Apps domain. After authenticating with Google, and redirecting, I received this error: https://app.rhinoaccounting.com/gaccount/callback/ https://app.rhinoaccounting.com/gaccount/callback/? Internal Server Error A server error prevented this page from being displayed. The administrator has been notified and will investigate the problem as soon as possible. There were a ton of query string parameters that may or may not be helpful in diagnosing the problem.

simonk 17y ago
Can you send me an email simon@rhinocloud.com I've had tons of people signup today without any problems.

qeorge 17y ago

Some small things: - I'm not sure what you mean by "for Google Apps." Do they provide a platform like Zoho that you can plug into or does this simply mean you use their Google login and take advantage of Docs, Gmail, etc? This may be obvious to most, but not to me. - It would be better to use an obviously fake company name, like Acme Paper, on your sample invoices. The way you have it now (with the Rhino Accounting logo) could imply that my invoices will all have your logo on them. (This sounds ridiculous, but we use Quickbooks Online now, and they're quite overzealous about inserting their branding where it doesn't belong) - The second screenshot is confusing. It looks like I'm about to send an invoice to a company named Paper Supplies for several thousand dollars worth of paper. - On the 3rd screenshot, why is the Businesses tab highlighted (3rd tab) but the heading says People (2nd tab)? - As others have pointed out, there's some inconsistent capitalization. Two that I see remaining: - "Data is Secure" (homepage) - "Lake view Furniture" (1st screenshot) - Navigation menu in the top right changes from page to page. Click through the Sign Up flow to see what I mean. - On the blog, your headings are overlapping the date line below - Also on the blog, you're showing ads in the sidebar. I know its a free service, but if this isn't a significant source of revenue I would kill it. - Also on the blog, you have a "Powered By Google App Engine" logo, but on another comment here you've said you are not using App Engine. Which is it?

simonk 17y ago
Firstly thanks for all the feedback. 1. The second option. 2. Sounds ridiculous, but will change this. 3. Will make better fake company names. 4. Fixing. 5. Fixing. 6. Ah problem between the website and the application servers (we host them separately). 7. Fixing. 8. It actually has been amazing for the traffic we get. 9. The blog is hosted on the Google App Engine, our actual application is not.

SimonDorfman 17y ago

I'm interested in trying it out for our group (gumbolabs.org, a non-profit corporation, a hackerspace). Can you suggest how one would use your site for these needs?: -manage monthly dues paid by members (each member is a client?) --breakdown of what i mean by "manage": mark each month as paid, be able to easily see who hasn't paid, be able to mark a whole year as paid. -track expenses like rent and internet bill -project into the future so see our financial health thanks!

simonk 17y ago
We can do everything except that last one right now. Make each member a client and make your landlord and internet company vendors. Make an invoice for each month (you can make them repeat), then make a receipt when they pay (it can handle them paying half, 3 months, whatever). You can go into a business or see on the dashboard who hasn't paid.

kapauldo 17y ago

Most small businesses have no idea what Google Apps is and why they need it. My advice is, let people try this instantly. Your registration asks for a domain. Hacker News folks understand this, but 99% of small business will abandon. I think you are in a great market and I think small business would gladly pay maybe $30-50/year for this or some kind of volume based payments, like, say over 5,000 journal entries is this price, and over 10,000 is this, etc. Remember, anyone can go to Office Max and buy Peachtree for $30. Online, access anywhere, automatically backed up, sharing with my accountant with one click, there are great great opportunities here for web/cloud based accounting. If you appeal to small businesses cheapness this will do great. I'd eliminate the "Google apps" altogether and just make this work transparently, FWIW. Also, I am a Peachtree expert, have a CPA requirements from school (I abandoned accounting after my first job interview) and I'd be happy to give you more feedback if that's helpful.