7 ms·

People aren't just scared of being forbidden from making racist jokes. People are scared of being forbidden to express opinions. Like, here's someone who was f

by philh 11y ago

People aren't just scared of being forbidden from making racist jokes. People are scared of being forbidden to express opinions. Like, here's someone who was fired for saying someone else shouldn't have been fired: http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-community-manager-understandably-fired-for-donald-sterling-tweets-25601 http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-communit... And it makes me pretty uncomfortable when people express "fear of being attacked for doing something that's okay", and other people turn that into "fear of being attacked for doing something that's not okay", and attack them for it.

Frondo 11y ago
A smart, capable community manager like Josh Olin should have no problem finding work with another game studio--one that would be OK with his public defense of the bigoted views of that basketball team owner. Maybe there aren't a lot of employers around who want to hire someone who promotes the view that "bigotry is OK," but surely there's at least one.
- philh 11y ago
  I've said that someone shouldn't have been fired for what they said, and you've said they can get another job. That is not reassuring. You've also turned a defense of a person into a defense of their views. You've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "bigotry is okay". That is not reassuring either.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    No one should ever be fired for saying anything? Or just "bigotry is OK, leave this bigot alone" is something someone should not be fired for?
    - philh 11y ago
      Again, you've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "bigotry is okay". You've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for saying someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "no one should ever be fired for anything". As it happens, I'm okay with Donald Sterling being fired. I'm not okay with Josh Olin being fired for saying Donald Sterling shouldn't have been fired. Would you support me being fired, for saying Josh Olin shouldn't have been fired?
wpietri 11y ago
My problem with this line of argument is that people who aren't well-off straight white guys like myself are already scared of expressing opinions. They have been for centuries. The only thing that has changed is that people with privilege, on rare occasion, can no longer say certain things without any consequence. As Popehat writes, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. There's an important question of what consequences should or can legitimately flow from speech. But when this "people shouldn't be scared to express opinions" line gets trotted out only to defend white guys, it's a tell. The nominal principle might be freedom of speech, but if the only people defended are the privileged, the actual principle is maintenance of societal privilege.
- philh 11y ago
  Let's be clear. You're saying it's okay to fire people for saying "it's not okay to fire people for bigotry". Yes? If you're not okay with that, if you think Josh Olin should not have been fired, please say so. I can see your argument, here. I disagree with you, but that's not what I want to get at here. What I want to get at is this: it's one thing to be scared of making racist jokes. It's another thing to be scared of expressing opinions like "Donald Sterling should not have been fired". When people say "I'm scared to express opinions", and then you attack them "ha ha, look at the white people complaining that they're afraid to make racist jokes, how sad for them" - and then you also say that it's okay to fire people for the opinions that they say they're scared to express... I don't have a polite term for this.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    I am not in fact saying that particular incident is or is not ok. (I also don't think his tweets are fairly characterized by your summation.) As I mentioned, I am addressing the line of argument, not the case. What I amsaying is that when the "freedom of speech" flag only gets hauled out for pro-bigotry straight white guys, I think it's not really about freedom of speech but instead defense of privilege. If defenders of free speech want to convince me they're serious, they'll be just as vigorous in defending unpopular opinions of people not in their demographic. That may even be you, in which case, congrats. But unlike you, I don't think it's unconditionally bad that some people are afraid to express opinions because they may face social consequences for them. E.g., if some of the Donald Sterlings of the world are now afraid to express their bigotry, that's ok by me. And if some people are afraid to publish something because they aren't sure whether or not it's bigoted, I also have a hard time seeing that as bad. That seems like a fine opportunity for them to consider their opinions before publishing them. In fact, I think that's what most people do. The only thing that's different is that straight white guys now have to do the same sort of self-managing that everybody else has always done, because they're now slightly less insulated from the consequences of their actions.
JulianMorrison 11y ago
It's not okay to say "bigotry is okay". It isn't. It's harmful. It has victims. The guy who got sacked, was rightfully sacked.

by philh 11y ago

Frondo 11y ago

A smart, capable community manager like Josh Olin should have no problem finding work with another game studio--one that would be OK with his public defense of the bigoted views of that basketball team owner. Maybe there aren't a lot of employers around who want to hire someone who promotes the view that "bigotry is OK," but surely there's at least one.

philh 11y ago
I've said that someone shouldn't have been fired for what they said, and you've said they can get another job. That is not reassuring. You've also turned a defense of a person into a defense of their views. You've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "bigotry is okay". That is not reassuring either.
- Frondo 11y ago
  No one should ever be fired for saying anything? Or just "bigotry is OK, leave this bigot alone" is something someone should not be fired for?
  - philh 11y ago
    Again, you've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "bigotry is okay". You've turned "someone shouldn't be fired for saying someone shouldn't be fired for bigotry" into "no one should ever be fired for anything". As it happens, I'm okay with Donald Sterling being fired. I'm not okay with Josh Olin being fired for saying Donald Sterling shouldn't have been fired. Would you support me being fired, for saying Josh Olin shouldn't have been fired?

wpietri 11y ago

My problem with this line of argument is that people who aren't well-off straight white guys like myself are already scared of expressing opinions. They have been for centuries. The only thing that has changed is that people with privilege, on rare occasion, can no longer say certain things without any consequence. As Popehat writes, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. There's an important question of what consequences should or can legitimately flow from speech. But when this "people shouldn't be scared to express opinions" line gets trotted out only to defend white guys, it's a tell. The nominal principle might be freedom of speech, but if the only people defended are the privileged, the actual principle is maintenance of societal privilege.

philh 11y ago
Let's be clear. You're saying it's okay to fire people for saying "it's not okay to fire people for bigotry". Yes? If you're not okay with that, if you think Josh Olin should not have been fired, please say so. I can see your argument, here. I disagree with you, but that's not what I want to get at here. What I want to get at is this: it's one thing to be scared of making racist jokes. It's another thing to be scared of expressing opinions like "Donald Sterling should not have been fired". When people say "I'm scared to express opinions", and then you attack them "ha ha, look at the white people complaining that they're afraid to make racist jokes, how sad for them" - and then you also say that it's okay to fire people for the opinions that they say they're scared to express... I don't have a polite term for this.
- wpietri 11y ago
  I am not in fact saying that particular incident is or is not ok. (I also don't think his tweets are fairly characterized by your summation.) As I mentioned, I am addressing the line of argument, not the case. What I amsaying is that when the "freedom of speech" flag only gets hauled out for pro-bigotry straight white guys, I think it's not really about freedom of speech but instead defense of privilege. If defenders of free speech want to convince me they're serious, they'll be just as vigorous in defending unpopular opinions of people not in their demographic. That may even be you, in which case, congrats. But unlike you, I don't think it's unconditionally bad that some people are afraid to express opinions because they may face social consequences for them. E.g., if some of the Donald Sterlings of the world are now afraid to express their bigotry, that's ok by me. And if some people are afraid to publish something because they aren't sure whether or not it's bigoted, I also have a hard time seeing that as bad. That seems like a fine opportunity for them to consider their opinions before publishing them. In fact, I think that's what most people do. The only thing that's different is that straight white guys now have to do the same sort of self-managing that everybody else has always done, because they're now slightly less insulated from the consequences of their actions.

JulianMorrison 11y ago

It's not okay to say "bigotry is okay". It isn't. It's harmful. It has victims. The guy who got sacked, was rightfully sacked.