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I have a friend who attended OKWU a few years ago. She shared this piece on Facebook in approval. From what I know from her education there, this place is essen
by lghh 11y ago
I have a friend who attended OKWU a few years ago. She shared this piece on Facebook in approval. From what I know from her education there, this place is essentially a "safe-space" for Christians. If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out. If you don't follow its rules, you are kicked out. If you drink, smoke, have premarital sex, are lgbtq, don't follow their strict ethics code you are kicked out. Their philosophy classes are all Biblical, if you question them you are kicked out. Until a few years ago, you could major in something that amounted to being a 'preacher's wife' (I can't remember the name of the major, but that was its goal).
Isn't this just an extreme safe-space for Christianity? It's exactly what they're arguing against, but backs up their worldview so it's not an issue.
It's honestly baffling because I am sure there are hundreds of very smart people there who must realize this, including the professors and administration.
- intortus 11y agoDoesn't matter. There's an anecdote about a student being a crybaby and that's the biggest threat facing humanity today. Get with the program. We can deal with the Christians once we sort out the safe spacers.
- lghh 11y ago> the biggest threat facing humanity today. Hyperbole? > We can deal with the Christians I don't want to deal with the Christians. I don't agree with their worldview most of the time, but the don't need to be dealt with. > once we sort out the safe spacers They are the safe spacers, just by a different name. Also, I think safe spaces are fine and they don't need sorted out. I was just making an observation on his hypocrisy and that safe spaces are not just for left-leaning people. He has cultivated a safe space for Christians and is bemoaning safe spaces for potential non-Christians.
- coderdude 11y agoNo, we really do need to weed out the people who can't handle the argument at hand based on personal insecurity before moving forward in any discussion. Otherwise, you're just wasting cycles on them and not the actual issue. (This addresses only the first part of your comment.)
- lghh 11y agoWhat do you mean by weed out? What are you expecting to do with them? (Not attacking, just asking)
- coderdude 11y agoBy weeding out I simply mean to ignore. Though weeding out also suggests identifying them as well.
- javajosh 11y agoI think there's something to the idea of "consensual communication". It's odd that we don't allow people to shove food into your mouth without asking but we surely allow people to shovel words into your brain without asking. "Safe spacers" just want a generalization of an ad blocker, and I for one support their right to it (even the ones that go way too far, because determining that is not up to me.)
- coderdude 11y agoWe might be arguing for different things. I don't believe in a blanket safe-spacer type. I think we all sometimes desire a place where our thoughts and beliefs are not challenged. For most, that is their family or a close circle of friends. I don't think it's appropriate to allow every venue to be a safe space.
- unethical_ban 11y agoAmerican society as I've grown up to appreciate it is built on free speech and the free exchange of ideas; the concept that people should be challenged in their views, and be able to think critically to analyze what they hear. If a group wants to acquire private property and start a club or meeting where they gather to share like-minded ideas and be away from dissent, that is acceptable. The place for "safe spaces" away from intellectual challenge is NOT the square of a university campus.
- Kalium 11y ago
- kelukelugames 11y agoI recommend adding a /s tag. The other poster didn't catch the sarcasm.
- lghh 11y agoOh, it's sarcasm? I really didn't know. That's an opinion I see pretty much everywhere so I just assumed it was serious, haha.
- nightspirit 11y agoThe beauty of Internet flamewars is that half of the people who voted this comment to the top voted out of agreement with the literal interpretation and the other half voted because they read "you missed /s" and took it for sarcastic. What the original poster intended you never know...
- gotchange 11y ago> What the original poster intended you never know... Isn't this the essence of religion after all? It's like that you don't know what were the real intentions of the OP who is unavailable and can't be reached and you're just left with vague texts and conflicting interpretations and re-interpretations making you feeling completely confused and lost.
- licoricetic 11y agoWhat I find interesting is that such posts, which epitomize Poe's law, despite seeming ambiguous (since you don't know if OP really believes/means "X" or "not X") can still be correctly interpreted as garbage posting by readers. You don't need to figure out if they are sarcastic or not.
- mfisher87 11y ago:) Who knows? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
- derrickdirge 11y agoI wish someone would do something about the way these "Safe Spacers" make me feel!
- qstyk 11y agoPreferably, we can deal with the people that accept hear-say and anecdotes to carte blanche dismiss demographics that they aren't a part of. Especially those in forums that claim to be based on an intellectual mindset. We can deal with them, once we deal with people that attempt to ridicule a legitimate concern by making it sound like the person making the point is presenting it as "the biggest threat facing humanity today." The pervasive whining being addressed in the article is spot on and was recently addressed in another HN posting: http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/11/24/the-yale-problem-begins-in-high-school/ http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/11/24/the-yale-problem-begi... There is a large segment of society that assumes that any alternate point of view, irrespective of how it's presented, must be an attack against them. This is akin to chastising someone warning people not to pick up the active business-end of an arc-welder.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoThis is a really important observation. Also, in the US, it's quite relevant to the current state of political rhetoric - I know the 'outrage half-life' is pretty short these days, but pointing to the Starbucks Red Cup "manufactured controversy" can, I think, reasonably be referenced to illustrate the hypocritical victimization tendency alive and well in modern (fundamentalist-oriented) Christianity. I think it's no coincidence that OKWU's official stance would be to decry "victim culture" when convenient, and embrace it when expected to conform to the will of society at large (e.g. Hobby Lobby vs. Obamacare).
- ctdonath 11y agoThe "red cup controversy" wasn't "alive and well in modern Christianity" as there was no actual outrage about the cup, only self-congratulatory outrage by others against the presumed & imputed anti-red-cup outrage which didn't actually exist. What's telling is how many people were quick to sneer at a group for doing something they didn't do.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoUh, it's an indicator. Goes alongside the "War on Christmas" narrative that has been, ahem, alive and well in modern Christianity. Would you prefer a citation of the growing frequency of political grand-standing of forbidding "Sharia Law" in predominately Christain districts?
- licoricetic 11y agoSaying "War on Christmas is alive and well in Christianity" is like saying "Daesh is alive and well in Islam". It is smearing a much larger group for the misbehavior of a small segment of demagogue extremists.
- Retra 11y ago"Small Segment" indeed: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/august-2015-ratings-fox-news-1-in-all-primetime-cable-msnbc-last-in-demo/ http://www.mediaite.com/tv/august-2015-ratings-fox-news-1-in...
- moonchrome 11y agoI don't usually make quips about religion - but - you're baffled that a religious person ignores inconsistencies in their argument to establish moral superiority ?
- lghh 11y agoThis wasn't intended as a quip against religion or religious people.
- whatok 11y agoReally have no problem with this if they aren't receiving any government money but unfortunately they are.
- darkerside 11y agoIt would be great if the top comment were about the content of the article instead of the character of the institution.
- ebola1717 11y agoI think the hypocrisy of the author is 100% about the content of the article.
- lghh 11y agoIt is about the article. The article is about the character of the institution as a university rather than a day care. I claimed the university is exactly what it's claiming not to be. My intention was to show that safe spaces exist in more ways than they are described and have been around for much much longer than the uproar of the last few years would lead one to believe, they have just not been run by left-leaning young people in universities.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jonknee 11y agoI found it very related to the content of the article. Even the title--the President of Oklahoma Wesleyan University doesn't realize that he really is running a day care for the college aged children of Christian parents. My brother went to a similar school and it's an absolute joke (down to needing to be signed out to leave campus!).
- kevin_thibedeau 11y agoCue Alanis...
- mcguire 11y agoOr at least not about how the institution is offensive to them.
- jlhim 11y agoSpare the irrelevant rant. The words in this article are gold and it sounds like you're one of the crybabies they are talking about.
- dang 11y agoWe ban accounts that post uncivil comments like this, so please don't do that.
- forrestthewoods 11y agoIs HackerNews a safe-space for programmers? If you say anything negative about PG or silicon valley, you are downvoted. If you don't follow its rules, you are banned. If you don't have the same opinion as everyone else, don't follow the strict posting guidelines you are kicked out. It's philosophy is all fund raising capitialism, if you try something crazy you don't get funded. Isn't HackerNews just an extreme safe-space for SV programmers? Ok ok ok. I'm not trying to say they're the exact same. But what I am saying in response to your post is... so? That all sounds fine and totally reasonable. I don't see a problem. I am amused how in the past two weeks the word "safe space" has been weaponized by the liberal left. First they demanded safe spaces. Then they were laughed at on a national scale. Now they throw back "oh yeah... well YOU'RE a safe space so fuck you!". I've seen it in multiple contexts and expect to see it more.
- lghh 11y ago> I've seen it in multiple contexts and expect to see it more. Because it's a reasonable argument to make. Saying "you can't take this from me and claim it is a bad thing when I do it but a good thing when you do it" is a perfectly fine way to respond.
- forrestthewoods 11y agoYou're only getting upvotes for what you're saying because HackerNews is a safe-space but only so long as you stay within it's rules and monoculture so fuck you. (note: I don't actually mean fuck you. I'd like to think y'all can see what I did there.)
- cm2187 11y agoHa ha. I remember writing a comment raising the problem of competence of software developers, given that anyone can call himself a developer and that we still have so many developers writing new sql injections vulnerabilities and making other security 101 bad design decisions. The reaction was to say the least hostile. It's all about budgets, bad bosses, etc. Being safe from criticism.
- edc117 11y ago
- myth_buster 11y agoI agree with the jist of what is said by the president, but while reading this I felt the religious intonations were a bit strong and the article not object enough. Reading your comment does provide correlation to the strong religious sentiments. Also their mission statement: As an evangelical Christian university of The Wesleyan Church, Oklahoma Wesleyan University models a way of thought, a way of life, and a way of faith. It is a place of serious study, honest questions, and critical engagement, all in the context of a liberal arts community that honors the Primacy of Jesus Christ, the Priority of Scripture, the Pursuit of Truth, and the Practice of Wisdom.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoThanks for posting the Mission Statement. Got me thinking a little bit more about their "values" so I was able to quickly dredge up a course catalog. Why? I wondered what their take on Biology would be - you know, that whole Evolution thing. To wit: Biology Major — Students will demonstrate the following outcomes, upon completion of the Biology degree offered by the School of Arts and Sciences: 1. A sound basic understanding of the chemistry of life. 2. A sound basic understanding of prokaryotic and eukaryotic cell structure and function. 3. A fundamental knowledge of Classical, Molecular, and Population genetics. 4. A sound basic understanding of the proposed mechanisms of evolution and understanding of Creation. 5. A sound basic understanding of the structure and function in plants and animals. 6. A sound basic understanding of ecology. 7. Integration of the Biblical Principles into life sciences. Needless to say, I'm not surprised by the "framing" of Evolution and, essentially, equivocating its merit with, um, Biblical Creationism.
- joeclark77 11y agoIt doesn't contain the word "Creationism". The word "Creation" simply means "the universe", i.e. that which is created.
- jccc 11y agoFair enough. What then does "Integration of the Biblical Principles into life sciences" mean?
- CaptSpify 11y agoI went to a similar school (not affiliated with OKWU), and had a very similar experience. I tried asking certain questions which were...not encouraged. Additionally, we had: Bible-majors for men, and Christian-Education Studies for women. I saw many women who were failed essentially because they were a woman and "women shouldn't be pastors, they should be Sunday-School teachers". The education was much more about "life-style management and shaping", than actual objective education. Basically, they told us that we can't "drink, smoke, etc", but then complained when we went and told them we were having any type of personal problems.
- jazzyk 11y agoIf I understand correctly, they clearly state their religious affiliation. They are free to "teach" whatever they want. And you are free to get your education somewhere else.
- CaptSpify 11y agoOh, I totally agree, and I did! But there is a pretty large level of hypocrisy in stating that they don't want to allow "safe-spaces", while creating their own "safe-spaces" under a different name.
- licoricetic 11y agoBeing an asshole to students, or even sinners, is not Christian as in Christ. The university is operating under false pretenses.
- crusso 11y agoI guess I see what you're trying to do - and I'm not a Christian; but the Christ depicted in the New Testament wasn't shy about calling out inappropriate behavior. He didn't politely ask the money changers to leave the temple, he flipped their tables over.
- licoricetic 11y ago
- arrrg 11y agoIn the name of hating on PC for completely irrational reasons everything is fair game for certain people. You see, they hate it so so much. Ugh, so icky.
- ams6110 11y agothis place is essentially a "safe-space" for Christians Well it's an evangelical college. It is what it says on the tin. They disapprove of certain behaviors they consider immoral, but if you don't know that going in, you didn't do your research.
- licoricetic 11y ago"Evangelical" means spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, which says that Jesus died to win forgiveness for your sins. Disapproving certain behaviors isn't really on the tin.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago"Sins" kind of implies that they're disapproved. The gospel of Jesus Christ is in fact that Jesus died to win forgiveness of your sins, but immediately after saying "I do not condemn you", he said "go and sin no more."
- ideonexus 11y agoAgreed. There is a certain irony in the online outrage about "safe spaces" coming from so many people who live in bubbles of their own. How many of these people are raging from the comfort of their homes and are only exposed to ideas and opinions from news sources of which they approve? I confess that Hackernews has become my bubble, but I appreciate the challenges to my thinking I find here.
- darkr 11y ago> It's honestly baffling because I am sure there are hundreds of very smart people there who must realize this, including the professors and administration. Well, they can't be that smart, given they haven't yet figured out that there is no supernatural dude who lives in the sky who communicates with them telepathically, and there is no such thing as ghosts (holy or otherwise).
- travisby 11y agoThanks for opening my eyes. I'm renouncing my religion tomorrow. You should write a book! You are very convincing. Let's not use HN as a place to destroy religion -- there's plenty of other venues for that.
- darkr 11y agoI'm not trying to get you to renounce your religion, I'm just saying that there is no such thing as ghosts.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jessaustin 11y agoI am not religious, but this is simply prejudice, and it doesn't belong here. What a sheltered life you claim to have led, not to have met anyone "smart" who is also religious.
- roosterjm2k2 11y agoIt's not prejudice to point out absurdity. Religion is simply that... and while there may be some intelligent people, I would say that anyone who believes in supernatural sky beings that run everything and watch every move and every thought of every human is not smart. I think smart is the application of intelligence, and while intelligent, the religious are not "smart" in that area.
- gotchange 11y agoSo, it's basically a re-education (indoctrination) camp disguised as an educational institution and therefore I concur with that "prof" in his plea with that student to beat it and get the heck out of there ASAP and leave this wonderful Christian madrassa and its faculty alone pondering over extremely important theological questions.
- mrbill 11y ago> It's honestly baffling because I am sure there are hundreds of very smart people there who must realize this Everyone attends this school voluntarily, so it's not like someone was hit in the face their first day with the fact that it's a Christian-based curriculum.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- aggieben 11y agoNot entirely sure what all you're getting at, but you don't find conservatives running around offended that you said "estate tax" instead of "death tax" or, more importantly, trying to make others use their preferred euphemism. Having said that, I fully admit there may be a few phrases that conservatives might be a bit sensitive to, but it would surely be a very short list.
- dragonwriter 11y agoYes, actually, I do see conservatives running around upset because people don't use the correct conservative propaganda terms to describe things, our reading against people for using certain words or not using certain preferred words just about every day (one of the joys of having a politically drivers Facebook circle); these only difference abroad the political spectrum that I see on that issue, besides the particular preferred terms, is that on the right there ideas more offense at people not using favored terms, and on the left there is more offense at people using disfavored terms. But there's offense at both on both sides.
- MisterBastahrd 11y agoWhy do they call it the Death Tax? Why do they call the lobbying for prevention of medical treatment for women, Pro-life? Why can't they call the opposition party by their actual name?
- aggieben 11y agoWhy do they call it the Death Tax? ...because the estate tax has the effect of being a tax on dying. Why do they call the lobbying for prevention of medical treatment for women, Pro-life? Because we think elective abortions (almost all abortions are elective) are not medical treatment, but rather a barbaric practice in which one person is killed for the convenience of the other, and in most cases is harmful in the long-term to the survivor as well. I feel strongly about this, but I'm not upset by people who want to call me "anti-abortion", because I am. Why can't they call the opposition party by their actual name? Uh....what? Do you mean "the Democratic Party" as opposed to the "Democrat Party"? I think that one is better chalked up to colloquial speech, regardless of what the Wikipedia article says. But like I said - being a lifelong Republican and conservative activist, I know exactly zero people who would be upset if you didn't say "death tax", "pro-life", or "Democrat Party" (or PPACA instead of ObamaCare).
- rs999gti 11y ago> Isn't this just an extreme safe-space for Christianity? But isn't that expected? OKWU's institution is as an evangelical Christian university - http://www.okwu.edu/about/ http://www.okwu.edu/about/ If you did not want Christian indoc then why would you go to a christian evangelical school?
- licoricetic 11y agoThere is nothing in Christian Evangelism that inherently implies that University teachers are right about everything and have no need to engage with students' understanding of Christianity.
- Domenic_S 11y agoIf you take the article's anecdote at face values, the student wasn't discussing Christian theology; he was scolding the speaker for making him feel bad. The passage in question (1 Cor. 13) is one of the most inoffensive passages in the bible, widely recited at even secular weddings for example. Distilled down, the school is saying that if a lesson on how we should selflessly love others makes you feel bad about yourself, the lesson you should take away is that you have some improvements to make in yourself -- not that you've been emotionally raped.
- licoricetic 11y agoWas the OP article written in a tone of "selfless love"?
- aggieben 11y agoThere's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space", which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing. If you hate Christianity, why would you go to this school? If you aren't willing to follow behavioral rules, why would you go to this school? If you think philosophy should only be secular, then why would you go to this school? Schools like this generally make no secret of their expectations for students and faculty. If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out. Really? Citation please; I simply don't believe this. Most Christian universities that I have any knowledge of invite (or at least aren't averse to it) tough discussion, and allow for a pretty wide range of critical thought about interpretations of the Bible, how Christianity should relate to politics, culture, science, and many other subjects. Until a few years ago, you could major in something that amounted to being a 'preacher's wife' (I can't remember the name of the major, but that was its goal). And this is evidence of what, exactly? "Safe-spaces", on the other hand, are cudgels of fear, handed to anyone claiming "victimization" to be capriciously used against people with whom they simply disagree and want to shut up. The reason they're even a thing is because school administrators themselves are beholden to the same fear. That's not at all like free association.
- doktrin 11y agoAgreed. The parent was making a fairly disingenuous comparison.
- intortus 11y ago> "Safe-spaces", on the other hand, are cudgels of fear, handed to anyone claiming "victimization" to be capriciously used against people with whom they simply disagree and want to shut up. Oh please. Now who's fear-cudgeling whom? You're being extremely melodramatic in reaction to a questionable anecdote.
- nightspirit 11y ago"Safe-spaces" are practical application of the principle, accidentally unearthed by xyz-equality movements of the 20th century, that people generally don't like hurting others and hence you can control them by appearing to be hurt, whether you are or not. People modeling victim behaviors to remove everything that causes them discomfort aren't something to be afraid of, but also their cries for attention aren't something to be treated too seriously. Allowing them to get their way just reinforces further learning of this silly strategy.
- pnathan 11y ago> Isn't this just an extreme safe-space for Christianity? It's exactly what they're arguing against, but backs up their worldview so it's not an issue. Well, a good solid Christian university isn't really a safe space; you should have a lot of theology and church history that you didn't know about taught - it will (should, heh) force a reexamination of what you claim you believe (as an aside, the summary is that the bog standard teachings from most churches only scratch the surface of what is actually there; reality is harder and more challenging than the milquetoast that is commonly taught). That said, it's fair to say that if a 'feminist' university existed, going in and complaining that your male feelings were hurt should get you the same response, mutis mutandi. Like another posted stated: this university does what's on the tin. If you or your parents don't like it, you shouldn't attend.
- nashashmi 11y agoYou just mentioned all of these things to gather support for your post. But then I think you missed the point of the article. Article Point: A student shouldn't complain because the content of the lecture hurts their "feelings". If they disagree, that is fine. Your point: The college doesn't like certain acts being part of their community. The college doesn't like certain speech being part of their community. And it doesn't like it if you do not believe in the faith. The two points are not related.
- declan 11y agoLet's assume for the moment that everything you say above in criticism of OKWU is correct. The difference is that OKWU markets itself as a Christian university; its stated vision is "to provide a thorough and sound education within a Christian philosophy of life" and education "in the light of Christian principles." Its student handbook clearly lists tobacco, drugs, alcohol, porn, and premarital sex as unacceptable. It should not be any surprise that if you are found to be engaging in any of those activities--which you and I may think are fine, but OKWU clearly does not--you will be disciplined and perhaps even kicked out. OKWU could not be more clear on this point. In contrast, Yale and many other universities claim to embrace free expression. Yale informs incoming students: "Yale’s commitment to freedom of expression means that when you agree to matriculate, you join a community where “the provocative, the disturbing, and the unorthodox” must be tolerated. When you encounter people who think differently than you do, you will be expected to honor their free expression, even when what they have to say seems wrong or offensive to you." http://yalecollege.yale.edu/new-students/class-2019/academic-information/intro-undergrad-education/freedom-expression http://yalecollege.yale.edu/new-students/class-2019/academic... So OKWU may be many things, but it is not hypocritical. If Yale and these other schools do not live up to their own freedom of expression promises, they are.