10 ms·

I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to

by lagadu 11y ago

I find it baffling that there are people, in the real world, who somehow think that for unexplained reasons they have the right to not be offended or be made to feel uncomfortable. Somehow they believe that their feelings are the responsibility of everyone else.

Shivetya 11y ago
It seems completely contrary to the idea of universities, to challenge your beliefs, overcome your fears, expand your knowledge, and more. That real threat is these narcissistic cretins who use intimidation and worse the courts to get their way will one day influence the laws we live under. We won't have any privacy if people who want all offensive ideas and actions curtailed and boxed. Instead of running away from 1984/V for Vendetta type worlds these kids are embracing it
- sotojuan 11y ago
  These days college is just another motion to go through before getting a job. It may sound cynical, but these kinds of students couldn't care less about any of what you said. They just want to be in day care for four years and then leave.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    these kinds of students You are right, but I just wanted to clarify that by no means are ALL college students there for a 4-year party and a safe room to run to when something upsets them. Many are still there for academic and philosophical challenges and growth, and are appalled that this noisy minority is getting so much attention. Really, if there's anyplace that goes above and beyond the call to be sure that all races, all sexual orientations/identites have equal access and opportunity, it's the modern public university. It's the last place you'd expect to see this kind of whinging.
maze-le 11y ago
Most baffling is that they seem to be the majority by now...
- adwn 11y ago
  Probably not the majority, but a very loud minority.
- fixermark 11y ago
  A good friend of mine has a saying on this topic: "Avoid the fallacy of confusing the majority with the majority voice. The majority voice is controlled by people who have the time and energy to make their voice heard; a lot of people are too busy working on their passions to bother to join the discussion."
PMan74 11y ago
The article blames "our culture" - I'd be interested to know what exactly - the media, the internet, parents, schools, sports clubs, or a combination of each.
- rubidium 11y ago
  Mostly parents+educational philosophy of the 1990's to present.
rayiner 11y ago
That's a strawman. Even the folks screaming at their residence hall master at Yale didn't assert an abstract "right not to be offended." Their beef was about an institution they pay money to not doing enough to police the conduct of other members of that institution. What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world.
- jorgeleo 11y ago
  The REAL strawman is: "What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world."
  - rayiner 11y ago
    It is, at least allegedly, real conduct that was, among other things, the reason those Yale students were angry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/02/students-accuse-yale-sae-fraternity-brothers-of-having-a-white-girls-only-policy-at-their-party https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/0.... Something real is by definition not a straw man.
    - pitt1980 11y ago
      let's be concrete about what we're talking about ------------------ from your link: "A fraternity brother who was at the party gave an entirely different account than Petros-Gouin. Speaking on condition that his name not be used because chapter rules discourage speaking to the media, he said members of the house always ask for Yale IDs and let everyone in until a party gets crowded. After that, a line forms. That night, no one with a Yale ID was turned away before 11:15 p.m., the member said. Yale and New Haven police had responded to noise complaints at the party, and brothers were told not to let anyone else in, to avoid crowding. He said numerous students have said a woman who was denied entrance angrily challenged the man who stopped her, screaming: “It’s because I’m black, isn’t it?” It was uncomfortable, he said, in part because that brother is African American and others working the door at the time are Portuguese and Costa Rican; he described the chapter as racially diverse. He said some in Yale’s black community have called black SAE members “Uncle Tom” on Monday, making them feel like they are being forced to choose between siding with the fraternity or others of their race. “It has become incredibly hostile,” he said. He and another student who attended the party said the crowd inside was representative of the student body at Yale." -------------------- I see an incident of undetermined "real"(ness)
maaku 11y ago
While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back you carried at all times in mixed-race race situations the possibility of being assaulted without recourse or lynched, or in present times accused and convicted of a crime you didn't commit or shot on sight for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine what it is like to be Jewish and have 85% of your relatives systematically wiped out in living memory. Imagine what it is like to be a woman on a college campus where statistically 1 in 3 suffer sexual assault over the course of a 4 year education, almost always with the assailant getting off without charges. Most times such people take offense it is not about feeling uncomfortable, but rather feeling unsafe. It is about fear that what starts with words will inevitably turn to, or enable, or justify actions.
- beedogs 11y ago
  That's completely irrational, though. Since when has reading about a violent assault led to a violent assault?
  - dnr 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research Not to mention all the (I think justifiable) talk currently about how violent rhetoric from politicians, in the media, encouraged the planned parenthood shooter and other recent domestic terrorists. I'm not completely sympathetic toward that point of view, but it's clearly not "completely irrational".
- d_theorist 11y ago
  What do you mean by "The concern"? What concern? The author's concern is about students complaining that they oughtn't to have their feelings hurt. I am sure that there are many other concerns out there - including physical safety - but I don't think they have anything to do with the concern raised by the OP.
duiker101 11y ago
I believe it's because this people haven't actually experienced the "real world". They might try to persuade some people in following some political correctness or whatever, but the world itself wont care.
TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Dr Piper's other public statements show that's very uncomfortable about and offended by many things - not least of which is majority support for gay marriage. Or any kind of homosexuality at all. He's so incredibly uncomfortable with both he'd rather they simply didn't exist. I have very little patience with anyone who runs the kind of moral racket that Dr Piper runs - which is making a career out of pretending to be a moral examplar by relying on appeal-to-authority and a lot of noisy rhetoric, and using both to justify social privilege for his beliefs. I don't care if they're religious types, economists, or any other kind of ideologues. In my world their opinions get no respect at all.
- stefantalpalaru 11y ago
  > In my world their opinions get no respect at all. You should try separating the opinion from the man and analyze the former without taking the shortcut of appealing to the authority of the latter.
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? The simpler argument is that Dr Piper is really in no position to act like anyone's external conscience. He has no basis whatsoever to claim that he's either qualified or competent to act in that role. Now, clearly he believes otherwise. That's very much his prerogative. It's everyone else's prerogative to decide whether or not they agree. I'd suggest that anyone who claims to be promoting genuine independent thought is going to be willing to engage in an open debate. "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. It's an attempt to shut down debate about an ethical position, not an attempt to encourage it.
    - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
      > So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? Only if you agree that it has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the proposed ideas. > "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. Nor is it the position of the author. When somebody tells you to grow up, they are not telling you how to feel, but how to act based on those feelings.

by lagadu 11y ago

Shivetya 11y ago

It seems completely contrary to the idea of universities, to challenge your beliefs, overcome your fears, expand your knowledge, and more. That real threat is these narcissistic cretins who use intimidation and worse the courts to get their way will one day influence the laws we live under. We won't have any privacy if people who want all offensive ideas and actions curtailed and boxed. Instead of running away from 1984/V for Vendetta type worlds these kids are embracing it

sotojuan 11y ago
These days college is just another motion to go through before getting a job. It may sound cynical, but these kinds of students couldn't care less about any of what you said. They just want to be in day care for four years and then leave.
- ams6110 11y ago
  these kinds of students You are right, but I just wanted to clarify that by no means are ALL college students there for a 4-year party and a safe room to run to when something upsets them. Many are still there for academic and philosophical challenges and growth, and are appalled that this noisy minority is getting so much attention. Really, if there's anyplace that goes above and beyond the call to be sure that all races, all sexual orientations/identites have equal access and opportunity, it's the modern public university. It's the last place you'd expect to see this kind of whinging.

maze-le 11y ago

Most baffling is that they seem to be the majority by now...

adwn 11y ago
Probably not the majority, but a very loud minority.
fixermark 11y ago
A good friend of mine has a saying on this topic: "Avoid the fallacy of confusing the majority with the majority voice. The majority voice is controlled by people who have the time and energy to make their voice heard; a lot of people are too busy working on their passions to bother to join the discussion."

PMan74 11y ago

The article blames "our culture" - I'd be interested to know what exactly - the media, the internet, parents, schools, sports clubs, or a combination of each.

rubidium 11y ago
Mostly parents+educational philosophy of the 1990's to present.

rayiner 11y ago

That's a strawman. Even the folks screaming at their residence hall master at Yale didn't assert an abstract "right not to be offended." Their beef was about an institution they pay money to not doing enough to police the conduct of other members of that institution. What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world.

jorgeleo 11y ago
The REAL strawman is: "What's equally baffling is Ivy-league frat boys thinking that "free speech" entitles them to engage in conduct that would get them summarily booted out in the real world."
- rayiner 11y ago
  It is, at least allegedly, real conduct that was, among other things, the reason those Yale students were angry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/02/students-accuse-yale-sae-fraternity-brothers-of-having-a-white-girls-only-policy-at-their-party https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/0.... Something real is by definition not a straw man.
  - pitt1980 11y ago
    let's be concrete about what we're talking about ------------------ from your link: "A fraternity brother who was at the party gave an entirely different account than Petros-Gouin. Speaking on condition that his name not be used because chapter rules discourage speaking to the media, he said members of the house always ask for Yale IDs and let everyone in until a party gets crowded. After that, a line forms. That night, no one with a Yale ID was turned away before 11:15 p.m., the member said. Yale and New Haven police had responded to noise complaints at the party, and brothers were told not to let anyone else in, to avoid crowding. He said numerous students have said a woman who was denied entrance angrily challenged the man who stopped her, screaming: “It’s because I’m black, isn’t it?” It was uncomfortable, he said, in part because that brother is African American and others working the door at the time are Portuguese and Costa Rican; he described the chapter as racially diverse. He said some in Yale’s black community have called black SAE members “Uncle Tom” on Monday, making them feel like they are being forced to choose between siding with the fraternity or others of their race. “It has become incredibly hostile,” he said. He and another student who attended the party said the crowd inside was representative of the student body at Yale." -------------------- I see an incident of undetermined "real"(ness)

maaku 11y ago

While I sympathize with your viewpoint, perhaps I can shed some clarity on the other side. The concern is not feelings getting hurt, but rather physical security as a person of minority status. This is something that a white heterosexual middle-class male (such as myself) can probably never fully appreciate, but I try to sympathize. Imagine what it is like to be black in a country where just a few generations back you carried at all times in mixed-race race situations the possibility of being assaulted without recourse or lynched, or in present times accused and convicted of a crime you didn't commit or shot on sight for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine what it is like to be Jewish and have 85% of your relatives systematically wiped out in living memory. Imagine what it is like to be a woman on a college campus where statistically 1 in 3 suffer sexual assault over the course of a 4 year education, almost always with the assailant getting off without charges. Most times such people take offense it is not about feeling uncomfortable, but rather feeling unsafe. It is about fear that what starts with words will inevitably turn to, or enable, or justify actions.

beedogs 11y ago
That's completely irrational, though. Since when has reading about a violent assault led to a violent assault?
- dnr 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research Not to mention all the (I think justifiable) talk currently about how violent rhetoric from politicians, in the media, encouraged the planned parenthood shooter and other recent domestic terrorists. I'm not completely sympathetic toward that point of view, but it's clearly not "completely irrational".
d_theorist 11y ago
What do you mean by "The concern"? What concern? The author's concern is about students complaining that they oughtn't to have their feelings hurt. I am sure that there are many other concerns out there - including physical safety - but I don't think they have anything to do with the concern raised by the OP.

duiker101 11y ago

I believe it's because this people haven't actually experienced the "real world". They might try to persuade some people in following some political correctness or whatever, but the world itself wont care.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

Dr Piper's other public statements show that's very uncomfortable about and offended by many things - not least of which is majority support for gay marriage. Or any kind of homosexuality at all. He's so incredibly uncomfortable with both he'd rather they simply didn't exist. I have very little patience with anyone who runs the kind of moral racket that Dr Piper runs - which is making a career out of pretending to be a moral examplar by relying on appeal-to-authority and a lot of noisy rhetoric, and using both to justify social privilege for his beliefs. I don't care if they're religious types, economists, or any other kind of ideologues. In my world their opinions get no respect at all.

stefantalpalaru 11y ago
> In my world their opinions get no respect at all. You should try separating the opinion from the man and analyze the former without taking the shortcut of appealing to the authority of the latter.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? The simpler argument is that Dr Piper is really in no position to act like anyone's external conscience. He has no basis whatsoever to claim that he's either qualified or competent to act in that role. Now, clearly he believes otherwise. That's very much his prerogative. It's everyone else's prerogative to decide whether or not they agree. I'd suggest that anyone who claims to be promoting genuine independent thought is going to be willing to engage in an open debate. "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. It's an attempt to shut down debate about an ethical position, not an attempt to encourage it.
  - stefantalpalaru 11y ago
    > So you don't agree that the process by which someone reaches a moral position is open to question? Only if you agree that it has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the proposed ideas. > "You're acting like a child and you shouldn't feel the way you do about the things I say" is neither an open position nor an honest one. Nor is it the position of the author. When somebody tells you to grow up, they are not telling you how to feel, but how to act based on those feelings.