5 ms·

Calling? It's a pretty well established 'fact' covered by Islamic sacred text, Its an assertion held by 1.8 billion Muslims. The books could well be works of fi

by fleitz 11y ago

Calling? It's a pretty well established 'fact' covered by Islamic sacred text, Its an assertion held by 1.8 billion Muslims. The books could well be works of fiction, the vast majority of people who assert the truth of the books are Muslim. I'm perfectly willing to accept that Mohammed was neither a prophet, nor a child rapist, but Muslims believe these things bring glory to him. However, to be respectful of their faith we must take their assertions at face value. It's about as controversial as Jesus being a bastard, or God being intolerant of homosexuals.

Mikeb85 11y ago
Keep in mind it's not so much that Mohamed was a 'paedophile' by our modern definition, rather that the definition has changed over time. Even in our own culture it was once the norm to betroth daughters to suitors while they were pre-pubescent, and to marry them as soon as they reached puberty... Polygamy is also a result of a violent era in which there were more unattached women than men - and in which having a husband was the only social security net. The problem is the literal interpretation of a 1300 year-old book in today's society (which is pretty much the whole philosophy behind Salafism/Wahhabism, that ever so destructive ideology propagated by our friends the Saudis). There's still Christians today that think it's OK to burn witches at the stake, and do... Edit - I love the downvotes for stating that mideivel attitudes are due to circumstances that arose during the middle ages (actually, a little bit earlier).
- _3u10 11y ago
  Exactly, rational people realize that we may have learned something in the past 1300 years. Irrational people believe that whatever we were doing 1300 years ago is what we should be doing today because... God said so.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    To add to this, some people (both Christian and Islamic fundamentalists) believe any sort of progress is 'wrong' (or at least superfluous) because Jesus will return (ironically Muslims also believe Jesus will return, but that he's Muslim, and not quite the son of God, just a great prophet) to smite their enemies anyway and bring about the 'end'.
- flubert 11y ago
  >Even in our own culture it was once the norm to betroth daughters to suitors while they were pre-pubescent, and to marry them as soon as they reached puberty. I'm interested in learning more. Can you narrow down what you mean by "our own culture", and provide a time frame? Like "Early America 1600-1800", or England in the 1400s, Anglo-Saxon culture, 1200, or Irish-Catholic 1300, or whatever. And then maybe point in the general direction of references where one could look this up. Maybe books or internet search terms? Thanks.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    From the time of the Roman empire until the French Revolution, the 'legal' marriage age for women was 12 (as per Roman law and later Church law). You could be betrothed (promised) at any age. Historic documents also show marriages did happen at younger ages. It's well known and easy to find through multiple sources (Google).
    - flubert 11y ago
      Wikipedia has a starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age#History_and_social_attitudes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age#History_and_s... one interesting quote (of course there is the Roman law you are refering to as well): "...most of Northwestern Europe, marriage at very early ages was rare. One thousand marriage certificates from 1619 to 1660 in the Archdiocese of Canterbury show that only one bride was 13 years of age, four were 15, twelve were 16, and seventeen were 17 years of age while the other 966 brides were at least 19 years of age at marriage. And the Church dictated that both the bride and groom must be at least 21 years of age to marry without the consent of their families; in the certificates, the most common age for the brides is 22 years. For the grooms 24 years is the most common age, with average ages of 24 years for the brides and 27 for the grooms."
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        Also this: > The American colonies followed the English tradition, but the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only 9 when she was married to William Williams. Sir Edward Coke (England, 17th century) made it clear that "the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was 9 even though her husband be only four years old".[1] Reliable data for when people would actually marry are very difficult to find. In England, for example, the only reliable data on age at marriage in the early modern period come from records that involved only those who left property after their death.
krapp 11y ago
You seem to be reading an intent behind my comment that isn't there. Whether or not it's relevant to the actual topic at hand, it seems inevitable that it will be brought up.

by fleitz 11y ago

Mikeb85 11y ago

Keep in mind it's not so much that Mohamed was a 'paedophile' by our modern definition, rather that the definition has changed over time. Even in our own culture it was once the norm to betroth daughters to suitors while they were pre-pubescent, and to marry them as soon as they reached puberty... Polygamy is also a result of a violent era in which there were more unattached women than men - and in which having a husband was the only social security net. The problem is the literal interpretation of a 1300 year-old book in today's society (which is pretty much the whole philosophy behind Salafism/Wahhabism, that ever so destructive ideology propagated by our friends the Saudis). There's still Christians today that think it's OK to burn witches at the stake, and do... Edit - I love the downvotes for stating that mideivel attitudes are due to circumstances that arose during the middle ages (actually, a little bit earlier).

_3u10 11y ago
Exactly, rational people realize that we may have learned something in the past 1300 years. Irrational people believe that whatever we were doing 1300 years ago is what we should be doing today because... God said so.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  To add to this, some people (both Christian and Islamic fundamentalists) believe any sort of progress is 'wrong' (or at least superfluous) because Jesus will return (ironically Muslims also believe Jesus will return, but that he's Muslim, and not quite the son of God, just a great prophet) to smite their enemies anyway and bring about the 'end'.
flubert 11y ago
>Even in our own culture it was once the norm to betroth daughters to suitors while they were pre-pubescent, and to marry them as soon as they reached puberty. I'm interested in learning more. Can you narrow down what you mean by "our own culture", and provide a time frame? Like "Early America 1600-1800", or England in the 1400s, Anglo-Saxon culture, 1200, or Irish-Catholic 1300, or whatever. And then maybe point in the general direction of references where one could look this up. Maybe books or internet search terms? Thanks.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  From the time of the Roman empire until the French Revolution, the 'legal' marriage age for women was 12 (as per Roman law and later Church law). You could be betrothed (promised) at any age. Historic documents also show marriages did happen at younger ages. It's well known and easy to find through multiple sources (Google).
  - flubert 11y ago
    Wikipedia has a starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age#History_and_social_attitudes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age#History_and_s... one interesting quote (of course there is the Roman law you are refering to as well): "...most of Northwestern Europe, marriage at very early ages was rare. One thousand marriage certificates from 1619 to 1660 in the Archdiocese of Canterbury show that only one bride was 13 years of age, four were 15, twelve were 16, and seventeen were 17 years of age while the other 966 brides were at least 19 years of age at marriage. And the Church dictated that both the bride and groom must be at least 21 years of age to marry without the consent of their families; in the certificates, the most common age for the brides is 22 years. For the grooms 24 years is the most common age, with average ages of 24 years for the brides and 27 for the grooms."
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      Also this: > The American colonies followed the English tradition, but the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only 9 when she was married to William Williams. Sir Edward Coke (England, 17th century) made it clear that "the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was 9 even though her husband be only four years old".[1] Reliable data for when people would actually marry are very difficult to find. In England, for example, the only reliable data on age at marriage in the early modern period come from records that involved only those who left property after their death.

krapp 11y ago

You seem to be reading an intent behind my comment that isn't there. Whether or not it's relevant to the actual topic at hand, it seems inevitable that it will be brought up.