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The issue is the taxes and the brain drain. It's impossible to keep people there (I'm a native of upstate NY and have recruited developers). We kept losing pe

The issue is the taxes and the brain drain. It's impossible to keep people there (I'm a native of upstate NY and have recruited developers). We kept losing people to NYC and West Coast based companies before we could even offer. Anyone we did get who wa sworthwhile moved west as well (I did too). Upstate has a lot of advantages (its a great place to raise a family), but has some massive disadvantages as well (the weather is one of them). There isn't enough tech to keep developers, because they know if your company tanks or fires them, the market isn't very good.

ryandrake 11y ago
> There isn't enough tech to keep developers, because they know if your company tanks or fires them, the market isn't very good. That's the big one. I moved from a "small town" with a single tech employer to the SF Bay Area to reduce the risk of unemployment. It was not a financially great decision (+50% salary, +300% cost of living) but here, if things go south, I can more easily find another employer. This is not true for most of the country. I'd gladly move back to small town America--I like backyards and big houses--but not if it means my life is at the whim of one or two local employers.
- ghaff 11y ago
  This is true in a lot of fields. I know someone who was doing international relations work for Walmart in Bentonville Arkansas which is basically a Walmart company town. They axed his group and he basically ended up living out of a suitcase and then moving to look for a new job. (Obviously a pretty specialized role and he needed to be somewhere he could physically network with a lot of folks.)
humanrebar 11y ago
> It's impossible to keep people there... Seems like that's a problem that could be solved with a big enough compensation package, right?
- cachemiss 11y ago
  It's not, the issue is that the market is so small, that even if you are paying really well, no one else is. So if things go south, you're going to have to move.
  - humanrebar 11y ago
    ...so you put another $20k in your emergency fund from your much-above-market-rate salary, right? I have a hard time seeing a developer making $200k in Buffalo getting excited about many NYC or SF offers.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      On the one hand the stereotypical 20-something urbanite without local roots doesn't want to live in Buffalo (or Kansas City or wherever) even if it's an economically rational choice if they have options. On the other hand, if they have a family, it's not as simple as hopping on a plane and going somewhere else. [Edit: I'd also argue that, if you can't imagine having a future in a particular locale, it may not make sense to take a job there unless it's with the explicit intent of having it be a limited time thing even if the pay is good. The networking associated with being physically in an area where job opportunities are good shouldn't be overlooked.] There are exceptions. There are successful tech companies outside of the usual places. And certainly outside of Silicon Valley and NYC. But attracting talent for non-remote positions can be challenging.
      - humanrebar 11y ago
        That 20-something is very stereotypical. I'm sure some cities are more attractive than others, but there are many that would not be interested in NYC of SF. Many more young people happily live outside of NYC and SF than inside those cities. As for families, NYC and SF are unattractive because of their extremely high cost of living, especially if home ownership is important. If long-term zip-code stability is important, the competition for Buffalo wouldn't be NYC or SF. Texas or North Carolina, maybe.

ryandrake 11y ago

> There isn't enough tech to keep developers, because they know if your company tanks or fires them, the market isn't very good. That's the big one. I moved from a "small town" with a single tech employer to the SF Bay Area to reduce the risk of unemployment. It was not a financially great decision (+50% salary, +300% cost of living) but here, if things go south, I can more easily find another employer. This is not true for most of the country. I'd gladly move back to small town America--I like backyards and big houses--but not if it means my life is at the whim of one or two local employers.

ghaff 11y ago
This is true in a lot of fields. I know someone who was doing international relations work for Walmart in Bentonville Arkansas which is basically a Walmart company town. They axed his group and he basically ended up living out of a suitcase and then moving to look for a new job. (Obviously a pretty specialized role and he needed to be somewhere he could physically network with a lot of folks.)

humanrebar 11y ago

> It's impossible to keep people there... Seems like that's a problem that could be solved with a big enough compensation package, right?

cachemiss 11y ago
It's not, the issue is that the market is so small, that even if you are paying really well, no one else is. So if things go south, you're going to have to move.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  ...so you put another $20k in your emergency fund from your much-above-market-rate salary, right? I have a hard time seeing a developer making $200k in Buffalo getting excited about many NYC or SF offers.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    On the one hand the stereotypical 20-something urbanite without local roots doesn't want to live in Buffalo (or Kansas City or wherever) even if it's an economically rational choice if they have options. On the other hand, if they have a family, it's not as simple as hopping on a plane and going somewhere else. [Edit: I'd also argue that, if you can't imagine having a future in a particular locale, it may not make sense to take a job there unless it's with the explicit intent of having it be a limited time thing even if the pay is good. The networking associated with being physically in an area where job opportunities are good shouldn't be overlooked.] There are exceptions. There are successful tech companies outside of the usual places. And certainly outside of Silicon Valley and NYC. But attracting talent for non-remote positions can be challenging.
    - humanrebar 11y ago
      That 20-something is very stereotypical. I'm sure some cities are more attractive than others, but there are many that would not be interested in NYC of SF. Many more young people happily live outside of NYC and SF than inside those cities. As for families, NYC and SF are unattractive because of their extremely high cost of living, especially if home ownership is important. If long-term zip-code stability is important, the competition for Buffalo wouldn't be NYC or SF. Texas or North Carolina, maybe.