4 ms·

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a

No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. Particularly of note in poverty stricken communities and the African American community which also happen to have many social problems. Its an interesting theory worth looking more into IMO.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Its perhaps more visible, but is it really becoming more common? Where are the statistics showing this?
- in3d 11y ago
  I don't know if randyrand has any statistics to support his statement and I don't see it as very similar to polygamy but http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182921/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182921/ says "Although the sample sizes for parents (especially those with two or more children) at younger ages are quite small and the magnitude of the differences is not large, the pattern nevertheless suggests that MPF (multiple-partner fertility) is likely to increase as younger cohorts age." I haven't seen any better estimates of this possible trend. 59% of African American mothers with two or more children have children by different fathers (http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8338-many-us-women-have-children-by-more-than-one-man http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8338-many-us-women-have-chi...).
venomsnake 11y ago
When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out. It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And you have a self perpetuating mess instead of social fabric.
- flubert 11y ago
  But which is the cause, and which is the effect? Could it be that welfare benefits have reduced the necessity for a woman to hold on to a man for financial support, so these men are now "adrift" and more likely to end up incarcerated? It might be interesting to look at welfare benefits and incarceration rates before and after 1964.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    The benefits are not the problem - you have a lot more generous benefits in Western Europe and UK and still they have lower incarceration rates than US. If they were the cause - the problem in Europe will be a lot worse. It is the other way around - remove the jobs from a community, men turn to crime - initiate "War on drugs" - and you have a positive loopback mechanism. That is multi generational.
    - flubert 11y ago
      >The benefits are not the problem - you have a lot more generous benefits in Western Europe and UK and still they have lower incarceration rates than US. ...That doesn't seem to me to be a proper control population.
  - randyrand 11y ago
    I'm SUPER interested in how welfare/child support has had a negative impact on African Amercian men, and the community at large. More people need to study this. I love examples of good intentions going bad.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    Also child support laws which could create an incentive for having multiple different fathers before settling down with one, so that you get more financial support than had one had the same number of children with just their husband.
- randyrand 11y ago
  Also worth noting, unlike Black men, multiple studies show that Black women (across countries) are the least sexually desirable race/gender combo for straight men. I've linked to one source from OkCupid below. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-... To speculate, IMO its in large part due to physical differences between races - the small petite Asian frames being advantageous for Asian women and disadvantageous for Asian men, and the large Black frames being advantageous for Black men, and disadvantageous for Black women. Societal views definitely play a role too. It would be interesting to compare across different societies.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. While sometimes people refer to "serial polygamy", and there are some contexts where its actually reasonable to view that as a kind of polygamy, here, where the focus is on formal, recognized marriage structures and whether men have the opportunity to enter into them, it isn't the kind of polygamy that is at issue, both: (1) because its not a formal, recognized marriage structure, and (2) because even if it were, it would be polyandrous, and the paper is comparing polygyny (not "polygamy" more generally) to monogamy, so this would be driving past monogamy on to the opposite side, if it were relevant at all.
- randyrand 11y ago
  I still think it's relevant in determining how multiple partners affects social problems. The broader picture.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Its perhaps more visible, but is it really becoming more common? Where are the statistics showing this?

in3d 11y ago
I don't know if randyrand has any statistics to support his statement and I don't see it as very similar to polygamy but http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182921/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4182921/ says "Although the sample sizes for parents (especially those with two or more children) at younger ages are quite small and the magnitude of the differences is not large, the pattern nevertheless suggests that MPF (multiple-partner fertility) is likely to increase as younger cohorts age." I haven't seen any better estimates of this possible trend. 59% of African American mothers with two or more children have children by different fathers (http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8338-many-us-women-have-children-by-more-than-one-man http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8338-many-us-women-have-chi...).

venomsnake 11y ago

When the black males spend their time in prison - you have serious competition for the ones that are out. It is not polygamy/andry, it is an act of desperation on the women's side to have any kind of economic support. When the social net is thin or unexistent - even if it means risking to have another kid. Add to the fact that poor people are the most restricted with their access to contraception and abortion. And you have a self perpetuating mess instead of social fabric.

flubert 11y ago
But which is the cause, and which is the effect? Could it be that welfare benefits have reduced the necessity for a woman to hold on to a man for financial support, so these men are now "adrift" and more likely to end up incarcerated? It might be interesting to look at welfare benefits and incarceration rates before and after 1964.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  The benefits are not the problem - you have a lot more generous benefits in Western Europe and UK and still they have lower incarceration rates than US. If they were the cause - the problem in Europe will be a lot worse. It is the other way around - remove the jobs from a community, men turn to crime - initiate "War on drugs" - and you have a positive loopback mechanism. That is multi generational.
  - flubert 11y ago
    >The benefits are not the problem - you have a lot more generous benefits in Western Europe and UK and still they have lower incarceration rates than US. ...That doesn't seem to me to be a proper control population.
- randyrand 11y ago
  I'm SUPER interested in how welfare/child support has had a negative impact on African Amercian men, and the community at large. More people need to study this. I love examples of good intentions going bad.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  Also child support laws which could create an incentive for having multiple different fathers before settling down with one, so that you get more financial support than had one had the same number of children with just their husband.
randyrand 11y ago
Also worth noting, unlike Black men, multiple studies show that Black women (across countries) are the least sexually desirable race/gender combo for straight men. I've linked to one source from OkCupid below. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-... To speculate, IMO its in large part due to physical differences between races - the small petite Asian frames being advantageous for Asian women and disadvantageous for Asian men, and the large Black frames being advantageous for Black men, and disadvantageous for Black women. Societal views definitely play a role too. It would be interesting to compare across different societies.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> No exactly the same, but it is becoming more common for women in the United States to have children to multiple different men in quick succession. Definitely a form of polygamy. While sometimes people refer to "serial polygamy", and there are some contexts where its actually reasonable to view that as a kind of polygamy, here, where the focus is on formal, recognized marriage structures and whether men have the opportunity to enter into them, it isn't the kind of polygamy that is at issue, both: (1) because its not a formal, recognized marriage structure, and (2) because even if it were, it would be polyandrous, and the paper is comparing polygyny (not "polygamy" more generally) to monogamy, so this would be driving past monogamy on to the opposite side, if it were relevant at all.

randyrand 11y ago
I still think it's relevant in determining how multiple partners affects social problems. The broader picture.