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This is actually a pointless distinction to make, as evidenced by the fact that (1) nobody is actually confused by one's meaning if they use 'less' where they w

This is actually a pointless distinction to make, as evidenced by the fact that (1) nobody is actually confused by one's meaning if they use 'less' where they were supposed to use 'fewer', and (2) there is no equivalent for 'more'. Probably one of the best examples of a rule that should be dropped from the English language, imo.

vacri 11y ago
It's a grammatical rule in the same bucket as "i before e except after c" and "possessive apostrophes on words ending with s don't get another s" "i before e" apparently has more words that violate the rule than follow it, and the possessive apostrophe rule runs opposite to spoken English: "This is James's book". The fewer/less thing is a general rule, not an ironclad one - there's plenty of examples where it sounds natural to use either. I'd also argue that with a demographic the size of Australia (~22M), the number of children in it are not feasibly countable (like grains of sand), and as such, 'less' is fine. :)
- vacri 11y ago
  oh noes! I have fewer karma!
  - vacri 11y ago
    Apparently some people disagree with this statement, but it's correct - karma on HN is definitely countable, hence 'fewer'. Of course, it sounds stupid, but apparently the rule is ironclad, to always be followed. Which reminds me, the 'split infinitive' rule is yet another nonsense grammatical rule that is overapplied.
jjtheblunt 11y ago
No, what was written is that the kids are born smaller. Agreed most people would "error correct" the wording.
xiaoma 11y ago
If we're going down that route we'd might as well eliminate the letters c and x, use phonetic spelling and reverse the meanings of driveway and parkway. Until the language is remade to conform to logic though, I think it's best to learn countable and uncountable distinctions. At the very least it's an advantage not to have others underestimate you based on grammar issues in your writing.
- xupybd 11y ago
  From the wiki page on this topic: "However, descriptive grammarians (who describe language as actually used) point out that this rule does not correctly describe the most common usage of today or the past and in fact arose as an incorrect generalization of a personal preference expressed by a grammarian in 1770:
  - Stratoscope 11y ago
    I'm sure fewer people every year care whether you write "fewer" or "less". By now, many people could care less. But quite a few will still notice and wonder why you didn't say "fewer", even if it's less of an issue than it used to be. I think it's still worth it to get this "right", if only because fewer people will think less of your writing. Watch out for that wiki page, if we're looking at the same one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less This page seems rather biased; it's easily earned its "neutrality of this article is disputed" tag with crazy stuff like this: > even most prescriptivists accept the most common usage "there are less cups of flour in this canister" [emphasis added] Instead of worrying about the opinions of "prescriptivists" and "descriptivists", just listen to the people you know, hear, and read: would most of them really say "there are less cups of flour in this canister"? And does that sound fine, or a bit off, to your ear? Of course, no one I know would say "there are fewer cups of flour in this canister" either - they would simply say "there's less flour in this canister". What do cups have to do with it? Language does change, and usage that was once "wrong" becomes right. A good example is "because of" and "due to". There was a terribly confusing rule about which to use, but these days fewer and fewer people will care if you simply use "due to" in every context. "Due to" has won, and it's nice to have one less rule to worry about. Alas, I don't think "fewer" and "less" are quite there yet.
mc32 11y ago
It depends, it can be read to indicate "inferior", rather than fewer. Also, depending how it modifies the succeeding word, if can change meaning: "There are less busy people." There are people who are not as busy, or, alternatively, there are fewer busy people. But generally the context makes it clear. However context can pretty much make anything clear.

vacri 11y ago

It's a grammatical rule in the same bucket as "i before e except after c" and "possessive apostrophes on words ending with s don't get another s" "i before e" apparently has more words that violate the rule than follow it, and the possessive apostrophe rule runs opposite to spoken English: "This is James's book". The fewer/less thing is a general rule, not an ironclad one - there's plenty of examples where it sounds natural to use either. I'd also argue that with a demographic the size of Australia (~22M), the number of children in it are not feasibly countable (like grains of sand), and as such, 'less' is fine. :)

vacri 11y ago
oh noes! I have fewer karma!
- vacri 11y ago
  Apparently some people disagree with this statement, but it's correct - karma on HN is definitely countable, hence 'fewer'. Of course, it sounds stupid, but apparently the rule is ironclad, to always be followed. Which reminds me, the 'split infinitive' rule is yet another nonsense grammatical rule that is overapplied.

jjtheblunt 11y ago

No, what was written is that the kids are born smaller. Agreed most people would "error correct" the wording.

xiaoma 11y ago

If we're going down that route we'd might as well eliminate the letters c and x, use phonetic spelling and reverse the meanings of driveway and parkway. Until the language is remade to conform to logic though, I think it's best to learn countable and uncountable distinctions. At the very least it's an advantage not to have others underestimate you based on grammar issues in your writing.

xupybd 11y ago
From the wiki page on this topic: "However, descriptive grammarians (who describe language as actually used) point out that this rule does not correctly describe the most common usage of today or the past and in fact arose as an incorrect generalization of a personal preference expressed by a grammarian in 1770:
- Stratoscope 11y ago
  I'm sure fewer people every year care whether you write "fewer" or "less". By now, many people could care less. But quite a few will still notice and wonder why you didn't say "fewer", even if it's less of an issue than it used to be. I think it's still worth it to get this "right", if only because fewer people will think less of your writing. Watch out for that wiki page, if we're looking at the same one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less This page seems rather biased; it's easily earned its "neutrality of this article is disputed" tag with crazy stuff like this: > even most prescriptivists accept the most common usage "there are less cups of flour in this canister" [emphasis added] Instead of worrying about the opinions of "prescriptivists" and "descriptivists", just listen to the people you know, hear, and read: would most of them really say "there are less cups of flour in this canister"? And does that sound fine, or a bit off, to your ear? Of course, no one I know would say "there are fewer cups of flour in this canister" either - they would simply say "there's less flour in this canister". What do cups have to do with it? Language does change, and usage that was once "wrong" becomes right. A good example is "because of" and "due to". There was a terribly confusing rule about which to use, but these days fewer and fewer people will care if you simply use "due to" in every context. "Due to" has won, and it's nice to have one less rule to worry about. Alas, I don't think "fewer" and "less" are quite there yet.

mc32 11y ago

It depends, it can be read to indicate "inferior", rather than fewer. Also, depending how it modifies the succeeding word, if can change meaning: "There are less busy people." There are people who are not as busy, or, alternatively, there are fewer busy people. But generally the context makes it clear. However context can pretty much make anything clear.