4 ms·

Toyota Unintended Acceleration and the Big Bowl of “Spaghetti” Code (2013)

42 points by charlieegan3 11y ago

huskyhuskie 11y ago
And yet business folk still probably think it's perfectly fine to outsource this kind of work because code is code, right?
nwmcsween 11y ago
IIRC it was generated C from matlab.
Paperweight 11y ago
Imagine the recall for this.
- mfisher87 11y ago
  Article dated 2013, not news.
ams6110 11y ago
From 2013
semi-extrinsic 11y ago
This is one reason why I will always prefer a manual transmission. Because it leaves me, the human, with a completely mechanical override. And it's more fun.
- Redoubts 11y ago
  I suspect cars are more fly-by-wire than you realize. And wasn't this issue with the throttle control? I suppose you could have downshifted with either type of transmission, but most drivers aren't prepared for sudden mechanical failure like this.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Just kick on the clutch pedal and the power transmission is broken.
    - jhallenworld 11y ago
      As long as the clutch linkage doesn't break :-) This happened to my dad while waiting at for a light at an intersection. Transmission in first, foot down on clutch: suddenly car leaps into intersection. This was long ago on a Volkswagen bus. The drive by wire which is terrifying is the power steering. Traditionally it's hydraulic, but more cars are using electric. I sure hope that an electrical component failure can not lead to full turning force. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-vs-hydraulic-steering-a-comprehensive-comparison-test-feature http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-vs-hydraulic-s...
    - mangix 11y ago
      shutting off the car, setting it to neutral, etc... do the same thing. bad drivers will be bad.
      - mschuster91 11y ago
        > shutting off the car, setting it to neutral Both of these are no fail-safe measures these days, as both ignition and auto transmissions are done entirely in software.
  - semi-extrinsic 11y ago
    I'm not aware of any passenger car with an electronically controlled clutch. The driver in question finally resorted to pulling the handbrake, which locked up the wheels, so she lost control of the car. Flooring the clutch pedal OTOH, if she'd had one, would have saved her life.
jack9 11y ago
Why do we never hear about programmers ethically challenging the auto makers when they clearly know about these flaws? It's akin to working on medical devices. Where is the incentive to not make lethal mistakes?
- shrineOfLies 11y ago
  These are not well educated programmers. They are probably run of the mill undereducated software engineers from an outsourcing company. They do not recognize the technical issue here, albeit report an ethical issue. Companies like Toyota generally outsource software development to other companies like Bosch. Bosch employs a bunch of programmers in Bangalore who are just out of college, and pay them peanuts to develop a safety critical system.
- throwaway_ghj 11y ago
  * they are part of a big enough team that individual responsibility is removed * they're not given enough time to produce good quality code * the design came from someone without sufficient expertise, and the programmers "just built it" * they did the best given the time they had * it passed testing * programmers are generally not empowered to make go/no-go decisions * even if they did express concern they may not have been listened to * any internal challenges on ethical grounds were probably kept quiet and worked around Usually with this kind of incident there are multiple process and quality failures, not just "why did the programmers not do better"
  - jack9 11y ago
    I have always objected when software was designed against my own ethics. I was never forced out, I just got another job or worked on another project. Every developer asks the question "why" am I making this. Only developers who care about the product seem to dig when given a hand wave and not a lot of them seem to care.
    - throwaway_ghj 11y ago
      Is it ethical to just walk away from a problem?
cooper12 11y ago
> Michael Barr...spent more than 20 months reviewing Toyota’s source code...in a hotel-sized room, supervised by security guards, who ensured that entrants brought no paper in or out, and wore no belts or watches. Why the restriction on belts and watches?
- SapphireSun 11y ago
  Clearly you've never been a magician. ;) It's easy to hide things in the band with invisible slight of hand.
dang 11y ago
https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Toyota%20Unintended%20Acceleration%20and%20the%20Big%20Bowl%20of%20%E2%80%9CSpaghetti%E2%80%9D%20Code%20points%3E50&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Toyota%20Unintended%20Accelera...
- kbenson 11y ago
  Is that why it just disappeared from the front page listing? I can understand tweaking it down in the rating algorithm, but if there's enough people that want to chime in that it makes it to the front page even after it's been covered before, removing it entirely seems fairly heavy handed.
  - dang 11y ago
    On HN, a story is considered a dupe if it has had significant attention in about the last year. We bury those, i.e. move them off the front page. If we didn't do that, the HN front page would quickly fill up with repeats, especially the most controversial repeats, which never run short of people wanting to "chime in". The present case is especially clear cut because there were two major recent discussions of the story.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      Fair enough, and I actually thought the top result in the search was this story the first time, so thought it was last discussed six months ago, not that and just a single month ago.
stretchwithme 11y ago
Some people seem more likely to experience the problem than others. http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/04/unintended-acceleration-study-blames-older-women-drivers/ http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/04/unintended-accelerat...

42 points by charlieegan3 11y ago

And yet business folk still probably think it's perfectly fine to outsource this kind of work because code is code, right?

nwmcsween 11y ago

IIRC it was generated C from matlab.

Paperweight 11y ago

Imagine the recall for this.

mfisher87 11y ago
Article dated 2013, not news.

ams6110 11y ago

From 2013

semi-extrinsic 11y ago

This is one reason why I will always prefer a manual transmission. Because it leaves me, the human, with a completely mechanical override. And it's more fun.

Redoubts 11y ago
I suspect cars are more fly-by-wire than you realize. And wasn't this issue with the throttle control? I suppose you could have downshifted with either type of transmission, but most drivers aren't prepared for sudden mechanical failure like this.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  Just kick on the clutch pedal and the power transmission is broken.
  - jhallenworld 11y ago
    As long as the clutch linkage doesn't break :-) This happened to my dad while waiting at for a light at an intersection. Transmission in first, foot down on clutch: suddenly car leaps into intersection. This was long ago on a Volkswagen bus. The drive by wire which is terrifying is the power steering. Traditionally it's hydraulic, but more cars are using electric. I sure hope that an electrical component failure can not lead to full turning force. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-vs-hydraulic-steering-a-comprehensive-comparison-test-feature http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-vs-hydraulic-s...
  - mangix 11y ago
    shutting off the car, setting it to neutral, etc... do the same thing. bad drivers will be bad.
    - mschuster91 11y ago
      > shutting off the car, setting it to neutral Both of these are no fail-safe measures these days, as both ignition and auto transmissions are done entirely in software.
- semi-extrinsic 11y ago
  I'm not aware of any passenger car with an electronically controlled clutch. The driver in question finally resorted to pulling the handbrake, which locked up the wheels, so she lost control of the car. Flooring the clutch pedal OTOH, if she'd had one, would have saved her life.

jack9 11y ago

Why do we never hear about programmers ethically challenging the auto makers when they clearly know about these flaws? It's akin to working on medical devices. Where is the incentive to not make lethal mistakes?

shrineOfLies 11y ago
These are not well educated programmers. They are probably run of the mill undereducated software engineers from an outsourcing company. They do not recognize the technical issue here, albeit report an ethical issue. Companies like Toyota generally outsource software development to other companies like Bosch. Bosch employs a bunch of programmers in Bangalore who are just out of college, and pay them peanuts to develop a safety critical system.
throwaway_ghj 11y ago
* they are part of a big enough team that individual responsibility is removed * they're not given enough time to produce good quality code * the design came from someone without sufficient expertise, and the programmers "just built it" * they did the best given the time they had * it passed testing * programmers are generally not empowered to make go/no-go decisions * even if they did express concern they may not have been listened to * any internal challenges on ethical grounds were probably kept quiet and worked around Usually with this kind of incident there are multiple process and quality failures, not just "why did the programmers not do better"
- jack9 11y ago
  I have always objected when software was designed against my own ethics. I was never forced out, I just got another job or worked on another project. Every developer asks the question "why" am I making this. Only developers who care about the product seem to dig when given a hand wave and not a lot of them seem to care.
  - throwaway_ghj 11y ago
    Is it ethical to just walk away from a problem?

cooper12 11y ago

> Michael Barr...spent more than 20 months reviewing Toyota’s source code...in a hotel-sized room, supervised by security guards, who ensured that entrants brought no paper in or out, and wore no belts or watches. Why the restriction on belts and watches?

SapphireSun 11y ago
Clearly you've never been a magician. ;) It's easy to hide things in the band with invisible slight of hand.

dang 11y ago

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Toyota%20Unintended%20Acceleration%20and%20the%20Big%20Bowl%20of%20%E2%80%9CSpaghetti%E2%80%9D%20Code%20points%3E50&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Toyota%20Unintended%20Accelera...

kbenson 11y ago
Is that why it just disappeared from the front page listing? I can understand tweaking it down in the rating algorithm, but if there's enough people that want to chime in that it makes it to the front page even after it's been covered before, removing it entirely seems fairly heavy handed.
- dang 11y ago
  On HN, a story is considered a dupe if it has had significant attention in about the last year. We bury those, i.e. move them off the front page. If we didn't do that, the HN front page would quickly fill up with repeats, especially the most controversial repeats, which never run short of people wanting to "chime in". The present case is especially clear cut because there were two major recent discussions of the story.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    Fair enough, and I actually thought the top result in the search was this story the first time, so thought it was last discussed six months ago, not that and just a single month ago.

stretchwithme 11y ago

Some people seem more likely to experience the problem than others. http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/04/unintended-acceleration-study-blames-older-women-drivers/ http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012/04/unintended-accelerat...