5 ms·

Jolla survival plan: suggestions

37 points by nextos 11y ago

nextos 11y ago
I feel really nostalgic for Maemo & the Nokia 770 series. A fantastic product that was ahead of its time, and in some ways superior to the iPhone which wouldn't be released till sometime later. It all ended up pretty badly for Nokia, mostly due to suicidal management decisions first by sticking exclusively to Symbian well beyond its use by date, then by switching to Windows. Impossible to understand when they had a winner product in-house. The Maemo era ended with the N9, outstanding software and hardware killed before it had a chance to succeed [1]. Jolla was a Maemo spinoff, but without the Nokia hardware expertise and financial muscle it was quite hard to succeed. Still, I hope they manage to put things together. I think the world needs a mobile platform with a better and more open userspace than what Android and iOS offer. Other projects like Pyra [2] and Neo900 [3] are trying to accomplish the same. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ [2] https://boards.openpandora.org/pyramain/main/ https://boards.openpandora.org/pyramain/main/ [3] http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/
- faddat 11y ago
  For a creator, one of the very best parts about open software is that even if the organization producing it goes belly-up, your software is yours (and everyone's) to do with as you (and they) please.
- mikegioia 11y ago
  I still think the n900 was the best phone to have ever been created.
  - nextos 11y ago
    I agree. It's so nice because its like a PC: open. You can tinker with it. You can install different operating systems. You can interact with it via different peripherals (keyboard, stylus). Current devices are at odds with this idea. Closed and with programmed obsolescence baked in. I really think there's room for a platform like Maemo/N900 today. Especially in a post-Snowden world, where privacy has become a major concern. Neither iOS nor Android are good enough. Many privacy conscious users have moved to CyanogenMod, which is OK but a bit immature. It's an Android patch after all.
    - mikegioia 11y ago
      I think what's missing is both a stable and cheap SoC, and a mass-produced open device with keyboard to load linux onto. If there was some stock phone with average specs that you could buy, like a Raspberry Pi, then I'd bet we'd see many more options in the same vein as the n900. I'm using an LG Cosmos 3 [1] and I'd kill even for access to modify the BrewMP OS and re-flash it. That's all I'm asking for! Even that seems impossible. [1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic-phones/cosmos-3/ https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic-phones/cosmos-3/
      - nextos 11y ago
        Yep. I think it's mostly about mass production. Pyra, not really a phone, but can be used as one is the closest thing we have to something where you can install whatever OS you feel like. And it requires a very dedicated effort to bootstrap a project like this and keep costs within control. Many projects, like Neo900 (or even Jolla Tablet) have had loads of trouble trying to manufacture something that is affordable.
    - iso8859-1 11y ago
      In a post-Snowden world, a closed source GSM implementation is not good enough ;)
      - nextos 11y ago
        Well, see Neo900 approach to this, where the GSM radio is completely isolated and monitored.
    - chei0aiV 11y ago
      http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/
faddat 11y ago
Jolla's bankruptcy positively sucks. Their entire enterprise had this... ebullience about it that couldn't be faked, and from what I hear, their product matched that. Well, it's back to the old Fruit vs Chocolate Factory decision...
- lemonade 11y ago
  Please see my other comments. They are not bankrupt. They are having significant financial issues, but debt restructuring is actually something that can work really well - the channel tunnel is the living example of this. I for one am going to order some spare batteries for my phone. That might give them some extra cash, and it is time to do so anyway ...
Zigurd 11y ago
Nokia could do worse than to spin-in Jolla. There must be enough handset engineers at Jolla and just sloshing around Helsinki that Nokia could spin up a world-class handset operation tout suite. A choice of Sailfish or Android would be very nice, especially Sailfish in the form of a Linux tablet.
- pavlov 11y ago
  But why would Nokia want a world-class handset operation when they just barely managed to offload theirs to a desperate buyer? (The brilliance of the "burning platform" Microsoft deal is that it made Ballmer emotionally attached to Nokia's phone business, thus giving Nokia an escape hatch.) There's no money left in making cell phones today, unless you're Apple or Chinese. Even Samsung is having trouble. For a 2nd tier brand, it's a really expensive business to be in -- look at Sony and HTC.
  - nextos 11y ago
    Perhaps by differentiation one can make phones and tablets profitable. This way works for Apple. It's not easy though. Differentiation would come here from a platform that respects privacy. And is also hacker friendly. Perhaps from hardware that is more expensive, but doesn't have programmed obsolescence. People are still using Nokia N900 6 years after release. And frankly, they are working pretty well.
  - lemonade 11y ago
    I don't think your analysis of the whole "Microsoft buying Nokia" is correct. Nokia did not offload, but had no money left to defend itself against an aggressor. Basically, they were led to the slaughterhouse by the "burning platform" message from a former Microsoft employee. The way Elop treated Nokia's technologically superior platform was very transparently not in the interest of Nokia. The subsequent sale must have landed him a lot of money. I'm curious what Elop is doing now ...
    - pavlov 11y ago
      Elop left Microsoft earlier this year in one of their reorgs. It's reasonable to say that he was fired, I think. It was clear before the Elop memo that Nokia's phone business was becoming a very expensive albatross. If they had stuck with Symbian and MeeGo, the financial situation in 2013 wouldn't have been much different from what actually happened with the Microsoft deal: under pressure from Apple and Android, the phone unit was losing money to the tune of hundreds of millions per quarter. Except this time, there wouldn't have been a buyer lined up to pay $4+ billion for it. So Nokia absolutely did manage to offload the phone business just in time. Microsoft ended up writing off the whole purchase price. An Elopless Nokia in 2015 would look a lot like Blackberry. Not quite bankrupt, but not in a happy place even though it had a technologically superior new OS and a brand that used to be worth a lot.
lemonade 11y ago
Am I missing something? This leads to a wiki page that does not actually say anything about a bankruptcy. Can you either substantiate or remove - remaining sailors seem to be working very hard, and I would hate it if false rumors would seed negative energy ...
- nextos 11y ago
  All key persons have quit and they are restructuring debt [1]. Furthermore, pre-ordered tablets cannot be shipped at the moment. Does this mean they are doomed? No. I would like them to succeed as much as anyone, and I'm not trying to spread false rumors or seed negative energy. Quite the opposite. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/jolla-debtrenegotiation-idUSL8N13F3EC20151120 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/jolla-debtrenegoti...
  - lemonade 11y ago
    The original title was changed because it was incorrect. Jolla has to make some financial restructuring. The Jolla blog posts are more up to date than this, but IRC might even be better.
justinclift 11y ago
And yet jolla.com has no mention of this (still encouraging buying), and neither does their blog. Um... wtf?
- nextos 11y ago
  Bankruptcy does not equal closing operations. They are still shipping phones. They are trying hard to stay afloat by restructuring debt, laying off a big chunk of their staff and getting some investment.
  - justinclift 11y ago
    Still doesn't seem that honest to potential customers. Trading when the directors know it's bankrupt is a big no-no legally isn't it?
    - nextos 11y ago
      Why, they have phones in stock. So it's not like people won't get them. And the little parts of the OS that are not open will be opensourced if they had to close operations. And also I think they will hopefully get some cash from investors and Finish govt really soon.
  - lemonade 11y ago
    Also, it is because they are not bankrupt. The original title is plainly misleading. They are restructuring. As a happy Jolla user (my whole family has one), I hope they make it. If you don't have one yet - I encourage you to order one. It is something different, and a feeling of 'just buying a phone, not a surveillance tool" that no other phone on the market can give you. They could do with your help. If you want to buy but are scared you might lose money doing so because of non-news like this: under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, your credit card company is jointly liable if something goes wrong with a product or a service you've paid for by credit card. So if anything fails, you get your money from the credit card company. If it doesn't, you'll have a great phone and instant real karma.
- lemonade 11y ago
lemonade 11y ago
Actually, these are suggestions from users to Jolla. It just shows how people care about this small company doing what the world needs now - make smartphones that don't phone home all the time, and that allow you to install a firewall, inspect what software is really running, block any service you don't want to give network access, run your trusted open source toolchains for whatever you need them for and all those other tiny things that make a real difference from the rest of the industry.
outside1234 11y ago
Suggestion: Shut it down. There are really cases where it is hopeless and this is one of them.
dman 11y ago
Communication from them about the tablets has been horrendous. I backed them last year and the way the communication around this project has been handled leaves a lot to be desired. In fact I have a lot more respect for the openpandora folks whom I have also backed in the past - both projects had their fair share of delays and hiccups but despite being a much smaller setup the openpandora did a much more honest and clear job of communicating how the project was evolving. In Jolla's case even till a week back the whole official line was that people would be getting their tablets by December.
swiley 11y ago
I wanted one of their phones so incredibly badly but you can't buy them here in the US. Now there's the Ubuntu touch phone which you (supposedly) /can/ buy in the us and (from what I've heard) also runs X11 apps.

37 points by nextos 11y ago

I feel really nostalgic for Maemo & the Nokia 770 series. A fantastic product that was ahead of its time, and in some ways superior to the iPhone which wouldn't be released till sometime later. It all ended up pretty badly for Nokia, mostly due to suicidal management decisions first by sticking exclusively to Symbian well beyond its use by date, then by switching to Windows. Impossible to understand when they had a winner product in-house. The Maemo era ended with the N9, outstanding software and hardware killed before it had a chance to succeed [1]. Jolla was a Maemo spinoff, but without the Nokia hardware expertise and financial muscle it was quite hard to succeed. Still, I hope they manage to put things together. I think the world needs a mobile platform with a better and more open userspace than what Android and iOS offer. Other projects like Pyra [2] and Neo900 [3] are trying to accomplish the same. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/22/nokia-n9-review/ [2] https://boards.openpandora.org/pyramain/main/ https://boards.openpandora.org/pyramain/main/ [3] http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/

faddat 11y ago
For a creator, one of the very best parts about open software is that even if the organization producing it goes belly-up, your software is yours (and everyone's) to do with as you (and they) please.
mikegioia 11y ago
I still think the n900 was the best phone to have ever been created.
- nextos 11y ago
  I agree. It's so nice because its like a PC: open. You can tinker with it. You can install different operating systems. You can interact with it via different peripherals (keyboard, stylus). Current devices are at odds with this idea. Closed and with programmed obsolescence baked in. I really think there's room for a platform like Maemo/N900 today. Especially in a post-Snowden world, where privacy has become a major concern. Neither iOS nor Android are good enough. Many privacy conscious users have moved to CyanogenMod, which is OK but a bit immature. It's an Android patch after all.
  - mikegioia 11y ago
    I think what's missing is both a stable and cheap SoC, and a mass-produced open device with keyboard to load linux onto. If there was some stock phone with average specs that you could buy, like a Raspberry Pi, then I'd bet we'd see many more options in the same vein as the n900. I'm using an LG Cosmos 3 [1] and I'd kill even for access to modify the BrewMP OS and re-flash it. That's all I'm asking for! Even that seems impossible. [1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic-phones/cosmos-3/ https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic-phones/cosmos-3/
    - nextos 11y ago
      Yep. I think it's mostly about mass production. Pyra, not really a phone, but can be used as one is the closest thing we have to something where you can install whatever OS you feel like. And it requires a very dedicated effort to bootstrap a project like this and keep costs within control. Many projects, like Neo900 (or even Jolla Tablet) have had loads of trouble trying to manufacture something that is affordable.
  - iso8859-1 11y ago
    In a post-Snowden world, a closed source GSM implementation is not good enough ;)
    - nextos 11y ago
      Well, see Neo900 approach to this, where the GSM radio is completely isolated and monitored.
  - chei0aiV 11y ago
    http://neo900.org/ http://neo900.org/

faddat 11y ago

Jolla's bankruptcy positively sucks. Their entire enterprise had this... ebullience about it that couldn't be faked, and from what I hear, their product matched that. Well, it's back to the old Fruit vs Chocolate Factory decision...

lemonade 11y ago
Please see my other comments. They are not bankrupt. They are having significant financial issues, but debt restructuring is actually something that can work really well - the channel tunnel is the living example of this. I for one am going to order some spare batteries for my phone. That might give them some extra cash, and it is time to do so anyway ...

Zigurd 11y ago

Nokia could do worse than to spin-in Jolla. There must be enough handset engineers at Jolla and just sloshing around Helsinki that Nokia could spin up a world-class handset operation tout suite. A choice of Sailfish or Android would be very nice, especially Sailfish in the form of a Linux tablet.

pavlov 11y ago
But why would Nokia want a world-class handset operation when they just barely managed to offload theirs to a desperate buyer? (The brilliance of the "burning platform" Microsoft deal is that it made Ballmer emotionally attached to Nokia's phone business, thus giving Nokia an escape hatch.) There's no money left in making cell phones today, unless you're Apple or Chinese. Even Samsung is having trouble. For a 2nd tier brand, it's a really expensive business to be in -- look at Sony and HTC.
- nextos 11y ago
  Perhaps by differentiation one can make phones and tablets profitable. This way works for Apple. It's not easy though. Differentiation would come here from a platform that respects privacy. And is also hacker friendly. Perhaps from hardware that is more expensive, but doesn't have programmed obsolescence. People are still using Nokia N900 6 years after release. And frankly, they are working pretty well.
- lemonade 11y ago
  I don't think your analysis of the whole "Microsoft buying Nokia" is correct. Nokia did not offload, but had no money left to defend itself against an aggressor. Basically, they were led to the slaughterhouse by the "burning platform" message from a former Microsoft employee. The way Elop treated Nokia's technologically superior platform was very transparently not in the interest of Nokia. The subsequent sale must have landed him a lot of money. I'm curious what Elop is doing now ...
  - pavlov 11y ago
    Elop left Microsoft earlier this year in one of their reorgs. It's reasonable to say that he was fired, I think. It was clear before the Elop memo that Nokia's phone business was becoming a very expensive albatross. If they had stuck with Symbian and MeeGo, the financial situation in 2013 wouldn't have been much different from what actually happened with the Microsoft deal: under pressure from Apple and Android, the phone unit was losing money to the tune of hundreds of millions per quarter. Except this time, there wouldn't have been a buyer lined up to pay $4+ billion for it. So Nokia absolutely did manage to offload the phone business just in time. Microsoft ended up writing off the whole purchase price. An Elopless Nokia in 2015 would look a lot like Blackberry. Not quite bankrupt, but not in a happy place even though it had a technologically superior new OS and a brand that used to be worth a lot.

lemonade 11y ago

Am I missing something? This leads to a wiki page that does not actually say anything about a bankruptcy. Can you either substantiate or remove - remaining sailors seem to be working very hard, and I would hate it if false rumors would seed negative energy ...

nextos 11y ago
All key persons have quit and they are restructuring debt [1]. Furthermore, pre-ordered tablets cannot be shipped at the moment. Does this mean they are doomed? No. I would like them to succeed as much as anyone, and I'm not trying to spread false rumors or seed negative energy. Quite the opposite. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/jolla-debtrenegotiation-idUSL8N13F3EC20151120 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/jolla-debtrenegoti...
- lemonade 11y ago
  The original title was changed because it was incorrect. Jolla has to make some financial restructuring. The Jolla blog posts are more up to date than this, but IRC might even be better.

justinclift 11y ago

And yet jolla.com has no mention of this (still encouraging buying), and neither does their blog. Um... wtf?

nextos 11y ago
Bankruptcy does not equal closing operations. They are still shipping phones. They are trying hard to stay afloat by restructuring debt, laying off a big chunk of their staff and getting some investment.
- justinclift 11y ago
  Still doesn't seem that honest to potential customers. Trading when the directors know it's bankrupt is a big no-no legally isn't it?
  - nextos 11y ago
    Why, they have phones in stock. So it's not like people won't get them. And the little parts of the OS that are not open will be opensourced if they had to close operations. And also I think they will hopefully get some cash from investors and Finish govt really soon.
- lemonade 11y ago
  Also, it is because they are not bankrupt. The original title is plainly misleading. They are restructuring. As a happy Jolla user (my whole family has one), I hope they make it. If you don't have one yet - I encourage you to order one. It is something different, and a feeling of 'just buying a phone, not a surveillance tool" that no other phone on the market can give you. They could do with your help. If you want to buy but are scared you might lose money doing so because of non-news like this: under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, your credit card company is jointly liable if something goes wrong with a product or a service you've paid for by credit card. So if anything fails, you get your money from the credit card company. If it doesn't, you'll have a great phone and instant real karma.
lemonade 11y ago

lemonade 11y ago

Actually, these are suggestions from users to Jolla. It just shows how people care about this small company doing what the world needs now - make smartphones that don't phone home all the time, and that allow you to install a firewall, inspect what software is really running, block any service you don't want to give network access, run your trusted open source toolchains for whatever you need them for and all those other tiny things that make a real difference from the rest of the industry.

outside1234 11y ago

Suggestion: Shut it down. There are really cases where it is hopeless and this is one of them.

dman 11y ago

Communication from them about the tablets has been horrendous. I backed them last year and the way the communication around this project has been handled leaves a lot to be desired. In fact I have a lot more respect for the openpandora folks whom I have also backed in the past - both projects had their fair share of delays and hiccups but despite being a much smaller setup the openpandora did a much more honest and clear job of communicating how the project was evolving. In Jolla's case even till a week back the whole official line was that people would be getting their tablets by December.

swiley 11y ago

I wanted one of their phones so incredibly badly but you can't buy them here in the US. Now there's the Ubuntu touch phone which you (supposedly) /can/ buy in the us and (from what I've heard) also runs X11 apps.