6 ms·

Swedish court: 'We cannot ban Pirate Bay'

153 points by jamesblonde 11y ago

scotty79 11y ago
They only say that copyright owners can't impose their ridiculousness on ISPs. Which should be obvious. It's as stupid as suggesting that gas stations shouldn't service highway toll evaders, because that would be helping them with their crimes. Or that car companies shouldn't sell them cars.
- jamesblonde 11y ago
  But all over Europe the opposite is happening. Courts are telling ISPs to ban access to Piratebay....
  - ogig 11y ago
    Indeed. It's actually blocked right now by my ISP.
    - mSparks 11y ago
      been using tor browser for a good few years now for most of my net use for exactly that reason.
  - belorn 11y ago
    I suspect that the enthusiasm to bend the laws to address pirate bay is slowly going down. Each court case pushes the scope for assistance, and in the case of .se registry case, the court even explicitly wrote that the Swedish law is currently very far reaching in this aspect. At some point all this will be used as precedence for non-copyright cases.
  - iso8859-1 11y ago
    Exactly. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T...
    - matthewrudy 11y ago
      I like the fact that the header says "due to copyright issues" but they include China in their list. Which I'd suggest is not banning it on the basis of "copyright issues" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T...
  - Bud 11y ago
    And in the US. Comcast has de facto banned torrent sites, too. If you use them, they start injecting warnings into your web browser, and it escalates from there.
everyone 11y ago
"The Pirate Bay, which grew into an international phenomenon after it was founded in Sweden in 2003, allows users to dodge copyright fees and share music, film and other files using bit torrent technology, or peer-to-peer links offered on the site – resulting in huge losses for music and movie makers." I have seen no credible evidence that file-sharing causes losses to music and movie makers. In any independent studies I've seen it in inconclusive and some of them suggest that file-sharing actually boosts sales by providing a fremium model / free advertising / word of mouth transmission etc. Also many other things are shared via the pirate bay other than copyrighted films and whatnot.
- themartorana 11y ago
  Yeah that's either biased or just plain lazy reporting. Edit: when something is general knowledge it doesn't require citations over and over again, because nothing has changed for over a decade. But fine. https://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf https://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf ftp://ftp.jrc.es/pub/EURdoc/JRC79605.pdf http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/bittorrent-piracy-increases-sales-of-leaked-albums-study/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/bittorrent-piracy-increas... https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2006_10-05_Oberholzer-Gee.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2... Let me know how many more you need instead of just down voting me.
  - unepipe 11y ago
    He said, with no citations.
  - such_a_casual 11y ago
    https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod?langua...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
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CookieMon 11y ago
> Bredbandsbolaget refused to comply, stating that its only role is to provide customers with internet access and ensuring the free-flow of information. Now that's an ISP to be with, regardless of whether they are the cheapest. The cheapest would cave to avoid the lawsuit, instead of using your money to set precedent for Sweden. (The studios tried the same thing in Australia, and iiNet put up a fight and won. Sadly iiNet was later bought out by another company and might no longer be a champion)
- beedogs 11y ago
  It was Internode that put up the fight initially. They were then bought by iiNet, who was then purchased by TPG. One great company was subsumed into a pretty-good one, which was then taken over by a mediocre-to-poor one.
- bjblazkowicz 11y ago
  You should read about Bahnhof. They are true Champions.
  - fnordsensei 11y ago
    They refused to give out traffic logs. When this was overruled, they gave their customers free VPN and encouraged them to use it.
- Stolpe 11y ago
  It's noble and all, but I think that the same decision would be made even if only business aspects were taken into account. Imagine being "that one ISP where you cannot download movies". They would probably loose many current and potential customers by having that stamp, even among customers that do not illegally download any movies at all. I'm Swedish myself and I have Bahnhof as my ISP. They are a company which builds much of their image on issues such as integrity and privacy, and that image is what got me to choose them over other options which were slightly(!) more expensive. So, all the sudden you have a company that gets a lot of appreciation from the public, and it's not like they are spending more money on their infrastructure just because they do everything they can to avoid tapping their customers' traffic. This seems like a no-brainer decision, which is why I find it hard to understand why it's not like this everywhere.
acd 11y ago
I think the ruling is correct. Should the electric utility also be involved, they provide electricity which is used for piracy. How about the makers of the CPU, the motherboard maker, the storage vendors? Should the builders of roads be responsible for people speeding on it, how about car makers making cars that go above the speed limit should they be responsible? As an individual I do have a moral right to pay for the digital media I consume so that new media will be produced and other people will not have to pay for my consumption.
- samuirai 11y ago
  Funny that you mention "storage vendors". In Germany we have to pay a fee as compensation on storage like USB sticks, because it is potentially used to store copyright material. It's outrageous. http://www.geek.com/news/germany-increases-usb-flash-drive-tax-by-over-2000-percent-1494587/ http://www.geek.com/news/germany-increases-usb-flash-drive-t...
  - acd 11y ago
    Same in Sweden, why is a storage vendor more liable than a CPU or memory vendor?
    - function_seven 11y ago
      Devil's Advocate: The storage device is where the copy of the copyrighted media resides. The CPU, speakers, headphones, video display, RAM, etc. are all transitory in their involvement of piracy; but the hard drive/USB stick is "where" the violation is taking place. Again, devil's advocate here! This is mostly a thought exercise. Related: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
      - Natanael_L 11y ago
        Some media companies have tried to sue switch makers over the fact that their switches temporarily hold copies of the sent media in their cache without a license. Related: http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-indexing-and-other-internet-functions http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-ind... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_5znwT86CD8J:https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/373/373.F3d.544.03-1911.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_5znwT8... http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-indexing-and-other-internet-functions http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-ind... http://www.pcworld.com/article/2036961/belgian-isps-sued-for-providing-internet-access-without-paying-copyright-levies.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2036961/belgian-isps-sued-for...
DodgyEggplant 11y ago
Notably, copyrights owners still didn't solve the "not available in your country" issue. A lot of people WANT to pay, but can't, since there is no legal option to pay for the content in their country
- 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
  It's worse than that. Look at Netflix, even if you pay, you can't be sure what content you get. Or you can watch a couple seasons only, or until some agreement expires. The media execs are crazy.
  - morgante 11y ago
    I find it especially annoying how Netflix changes in each country. So I can start watching a show but can't continue it once I get to another country. We need to abolish the insane notion of national boundaries for informational goods.
  - awqrre 11y ago
    Or maybe they see the benefits of piracy...
- OSButler 11y ago
  Not only that but some online services add DRM to their media downloads, which can range from minor annoyance to being unable to play the legally obtained file. I've had the issue with a special edition movies set on iTunes, which prevented the playback on an external monitor (vga connector). There was no info about this limitation on their store page and only after contacting support did they mention that the problem was the DRM imposed by the publisher. Another sector where I've noticed this quite a lot is in international media releases (music & videos). I've experienced your mentioned "not available in your country" many times with Japanese music videos. It makes (kind of) sense if we're talking excerpts from a TV show, which is usually licensed out to the individual countries, so you'll most likely not be able to watch clips on their official site unless you're accessing it from within the origin country. However, I don't understand how this applies to music videos. One would assume that those are being used to generate hype & revenue for music/ticket sales, so why do they get access restricted?
gizi 11y ago
Regardless of the law suit, I do not like the DNS system a bit. It is conceptually just a table that associates names and IP addresses: name1 ipaddress1, name1 ipaddress2, name2 ipaddress3, name3 ipaddress1 ... Nobody should have the right to manipulate or to censor that table. It should be entirely decentralized, just like the table storing the onion addresses on the tor network. So, if it helps getting rid of the existing DNS system, I am in favour of blocking the DNS entry for the pirate bay. I want to encourage them to destroy that system by thoroughly discrediting it. I don't want to block just one entry. I want to block all of them.

153 points by jamesblonde 11y ago

They only say that copyright owners can't impose their ridiculousness on ISPs. Which should be obvious. It's as stupid as suggesting that gas stations shouldn't service highway toll evaders, because that would be helping them with their crimes. Or that car companies shouldn't sell them cars.

jamesblonde 11y ago
But all over Europe the opposite is happening. Courts are telling ISPs to ban access to Piratebay....
- ogig 11y ago
  Indeed. It's actually blocked right now by my ISP.
  - mSparks 11y ago
    been using tor browser for a good few years now for most of my net use for exactly that reason.
- belorn 11y ago
  I suspect that the enthusiasm to bend the laws to address pirate bay is slowly going down. Each court case pushes the scope for assistance, and in the case of .se registry case, the court even explicitly wrote that the Swedish law is currently very far reaching in this aspect. At some point all this will be used as precedence for non-copyright cases.
- iso8859-1 11y ago
  Exactly. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T...
  - matthewrudy 11y ago
    I like the fact that the header says "due to copyright issues" but they include China in their list. Which I'd suggest is not banning it on the basis of "copyright issues" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T...
- Bud 11y ago
  And in the US. Comcast has de facto banned torrent sites, too. If you use them, they start injecting warnings into your web browser, and it escalates from there.

everyone 11y ago

"The Pirate Bay, which grew into an international phenomenon after it was founded in Sweden in 2003, allows users to dodge copyright fees and share music, film and other files using bit torrent technology, or peer-to-peer links offered on the site – resulting in huge losses for music and movie makers." I have seen no credible evidence that file-sharing causes losses to music and movie makers. In any independent studies I've seen it in inconclusive and some of them suggest that file-sharing actually boosts sales by providing a fremium model / free advertising / word of mouth transmission etc. Also many other things are shared via the pirate bay other than copyrighted films and whatnot.

themartorana 11y ago
Yeah that's either biased or just plain lazy reporting. Edit: when something is general knowledge it doesn't require citations over and over again, because nothing has changed for over a decade. But fine. https://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf https://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf ftp://ftp.jrc.es/pub/EURdoc/JRC79605.pdf http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/bittorrent-piracy-increases-sales-of-leaked-albums-study/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/bittorrent-piracy-increas... https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2006_10-05_Oberholzer-Gee.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/documents/2... Let me know how many more you need instead of just down voting me.
- unepipe 11y ago
  He said, with no citations.
- such_a_casual 11y ago
  https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod?langua...
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

CookieMon 11y ago

> Bredbandsbolaget refused to comply, stating that its only role is to provide customers with internet access and ensuring the free-flow of information. Now that's an ISP to be with, regardless of whether they are the cheapest. The cheapest would cave to avoid the lawsuit, instead of using your money to set precedent for Sweden. (The studios tried the same thing in Australia, and iiNet put up a fight and won. Sadly iiNet was later bought out by another company and might no longer be a champion)

beedogs 11y ago
It was Internode that put up the fight initially. They were then bought by iiNet, who was then purchased by TPG. One great company was subsumed into a pretty-good one, which was then taken over by a mediocre-to-poor one.
bjblazkowicz 11y ago
You should read about Bahnhof. They are true Champions.
- fnordsensei 11y ago
  They refused to give out traffic logs. When this was overruled, they gave their customers free VPN and encouraged them to use it.
Stolpe 11y ago
It's noble and all, but I think that the same decision would be made even if only business aspects were taken into account. Imagine being "that one ISP where you cannot download movies". They would probably loose many current and potential customers by having that stamp, even among customers that do not illegally download any movies at all. I'm Swedish myself and I have Bahnhof as my ISP. They are a company which builds much of their image on issues such as integrity and privacy, and that image is what got me to choose them over other options which were slightly(!) more expensive. So, all the sudden you have a company that gets a lot of appreciation from the public, and it's not like they are spending more money on their infrastructure just because they do everything they can to avoid tapping their customers' traffic. This seems like a no-brainer decision, which is why I find it hard to understand why it's not like this everywhere.

acd 11y ago

I think the ruling is correct. Should the electric utility also be involved, they provide electricity which is used for piracy. How about the makers of the CPU, the motherboard maker, the storage vendors? Should the builders of roads be responsible for people speeding on it, how about car makers making cars that go above the speed limit should they be responsible? As an individual I do have a moral right to pay for the digital media I consume so that new media will be produced and other people will not have to pay for my consumption.

samuirai 11y ago
Funny that you mention "storage vendors". In Germany we have to pay a fee as compensation on storage like USB sticks, because it is potentially used to store copyright material. It's outrageous. http://www.geek.com/news/germany-increases-usb-flash-drive-tax-by-over-2000-percent-1494587/ http://www.geek.com/news/germany-increases-usb-flash-drive-t...
- acd 11y ago
  Same in Sweden, why is a storage vendor more liable than a CPU or memory vendor?
  - function_seven 11y ago
    Devil's Advocate: The storage device is where the copy of the copyrighted media resides. The CPU, speakers, headphones, video display, RAM, etc. are all transitory in their involvement of piracy; but the hard drive/USB stick is "where" the violation is taking place. Again, devil's advocate here! This is mostly a thought exercise. Related: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
    - Natanael_L 11y ago
      Some media companies have tried to sue switch makers over the fact that their switches temporarily hold copies of the sent media in their cache without a license. Related: http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-indexing-and-other-internet-functions http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-ind... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_5znwT86CD8J:https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/373/373.F3d.544.03-1911.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_5znwT8... http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-indexing-and-other-internet-functions http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/issues-paper/caching-ind... http://www.pcworld.com/article/2036961/belgian-isps-sued-for-providing-internet-access-without-paying-copyright-levies.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2036961/belgian-isps-sued-for...

DodgyEggplant 11y ago

Notably, copyrights owners still didn't solve the "not available in your country" issue. A lot of people WANT to pay, but can't, since there is no legal option to pay for the content in their country

2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
It's worse than that. Look at Netflix, even if you pay, you can't be sure what content you get. Or you can watch a couple seasons only, or until some agreement expires. The media execs are crazy.
- morgante 11y ago
  I find it especially annoying how Netflix changes in each country. So I can start watching a show but can't continue it once I get to another country. We need to abolish the insane notion of national boundaries for informational goods.
- awqrre 11y ago
  Or maybe they see the benefits of piracy...
OSButler 11y ago
Not only that but some online services add DRM to their media downloads, which can range from minor annoyance to being unable to play the legally obtained file. I've had the issue with a special edition movies set on iTunes, which prevented the playback on an external monitor (vga connector). There was no info about this limitation on their store page and only after contacting support did they mention that the problem was the DRM imposed by the publisher. Another sector where I've noticed this quite a lot is in international media releases (music & videos). I've experienced your mentioned "not available in your country" many times with Japanese music videos. It makes (kind of) sense if we're talking excerpts from a TV show, which is usually licensed out to the individual countries, so you'll most likely not be able to watch clips on their official site unless you're accessing it from within the origin country. However, I don't understand how this applies to music videos. One would assume that those are being used to generate hype & revenue for music/ticket sales, so why do they get access restricted?

gizi 11y ago

Regardless of the law suit, I do not like the DNS system a bit. It is conceptually just a table that associates names and IP addresses: name1 ipaddress1, name1 ipaddress2, name2 ipaddress3, name3 ipaddress1 ... Nobody should have the right to manipulate or to censor that table. It should be entirely decentralized, just like the table storing the onion addresses on the tor network. So, if it helps getting rid of the existing DNS system, I am in favour of blocking the DNS entry for the pirate bay. I want to encourage them to destroy that system by thoroughly discrediting it. I don't want to block just one entry. I want to block all of them.