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For example, we have a public health system, and while I paid something like $15000 last year in taxes (a big amount for us), my wife got pregnant, she's having

For example, we have a public health system, and while I paid something like $15000 last year in taxes (a big amount for us), my wife got pregnant, she's having problems ... and we've had to bribe a doctor to even speak to us, not to mention they demand big bribes for doing a clean caesarean section, and my wife needs it. The poor souls that don't have money for bribes simply get fucked. How is that not the government? If there weren't a public health system, there would be more doctors and they wouldn't be able to bribe you. You could just go to someone else.

bad_user 17y ago
> How is that not the government? If there weren't a public health system, there would be more doctors and they wouldn't be able to bribe you. You could just go to someone else. It doesn't work like that, the system is more relaxed than in other countries ... you can go to any doctor you want. Surely, competition seems like the answer, but there's something larger at play here ... I once heard of a woman in labor that lost her child because her doctor was out of town, and the others doctors from the hospital refused to intervene ... you see, they are very territorial. Of course, such tragedies don't happen so often, but they do happen. And we've also got private health insurances and clinics (it's not like the government prohibits it) ... the problem is that those are only useful for your periodic consults ... but in case of an emergency, you want a good doctor not an incompetent one, and those tend to work in public hospitals. No really, we have a mostly working democracy and capitalism ... not helping much ;)
- berntb 17y ago
  >>No really, we have a mostly working democracy and capitalism ... not helping much ;) In a few decades this will probably be formalized and down to a science, with advice etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_governance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_governance But by that time, technical development will have created totally new sets of problems. :-)
radu_floricica 17y ago
We have a mixed (and reasonably good) system. You can go to any private clinic you want. It will be expensive, but a much more pleasant experience. Or you can stay with the public system, but in this case you will definitely encounter bribes. The cause is pretty simple: the salaries in public health are way lower then they should be. Most pacients understand that and view the bribes as a normal form of compensation. The system is mixed in more ways than one. Many good doctors work both ways. They spend time in the public hospitals to gather pacients, which they then bring to their private clinic. Also the numbers mentioned by the grandparent seem a bit large. I'd say the average daily income is below $15. AFAIK, a good birth in a private hospital is around $1500, so he probably should have gone this way from the beginning.
- bad_user 17y ago
  > the salaries in public health are way lower then they should be I understand that, but the way I view it ... it's not my fault they got into this. And while it's mostly a functional system (AFAIK, the US health system is horrible), it kind of bothers me that I pay lots of taxes without getting a return. > AFAIK, a good birth in a private hospital is around $1500, so he probably should have gone this way from the beginning. Well, my wife is having complications ... we first went to a private clinic, and the doctor consulting us just shook his head with no advice for us, other than "wait and see what happens" ... and in a private clinic, it's more like $2000 for a normal birth ... and I've heard of a case when the doctor demanded a bribe anyway. So to get proper treatment in this case ... we've had to go to the hospital in Giulesti, which has some of the best doctors available. Now, of course, the doctor we ended up with (Puia Sorin in case you are interested :)), which is renowned for "delivering babies" :) ... treats his patients equally, the only problem being that he's too busy to take on new patients (fortunately, there are still some decent people left).
  - radu_floricica 17y ago
    Yes, this is a problem. The best doctors tend to be in the public system... or maybe they're the most networked? There should be plenty of good doctors working from their own offices, but they're probably a lot harder to find / evaluate.
rbanffy 17y ago
Not all problems can be solved by competition. This specific one could be best solved by a strong medical association, backed by strong laws, enforcing ethical behavior.
- eru 17y ago
  Oh, competition could still help. Interestingly, you can have some forms of competition, even with a public health care system.

bad_user 17y ago

> How is that not the government? If there weren't a public health system, there would be more doctors and they wouldn't be able to bribe you. You could just go to someone else. It doesn't work like that, the system is more relaxed than in other countries ... you can go to any doctor you want. Surely, competition seems like the answer, but there's something larger at play here ... I once heard of a woman in labor that lost her child because her doctor was out of town, and the others doctors from the hospital refused to intervene ... you see, they are very territorial. Of course, such tragedies don't happen so often, but they do happen. And we've also got private health insurances and clinics (it's not like the government prohibits it) ... the problem is that those are only useful for your periodic consults ... but in case of an emergency, you want a good doctor not an incompetent one, and those tend to work in public hospitals. No really, we have a mostly working democracy and capitalism ... not helping much ;)

berntb 17y ago
>>No really, we have a mostly working democracy and capitalism ... not helping much ;) In a few decades this will probably be formalized and down to a science, with advice etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_governance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_governance But by that time, technical development will have created totally new sets of problems. :-)

radu_floricica 17y ago

We have a mixed (and reasonably good) system. You can go to any private clinic you want. It will be expensive, but a much more pleasant experience. Or you can stay with the public system, but in this case you will definitely encounter bribes. The cause is pretty simple: the salaries in public health are way lower then they should be. Most pacients understand that and view the bribes as a normal form of compensation. The system is mixed in more ways than one. Many good doctors work both ways. They spend time in the public hospitals to gather pacients, which they then bring to their private clinic. Also the numbers mentioned by the grandparent seem a bit large. I'd say the average daily income is below $15. AFAIK, a good birth in a private hospital is around $1500, so he probably should have gone this way from the beginning.

bad_user 17y ago
> the salaries in public health are way lower then they should be I understand that, but the way I view it ... it's not my fault they got into this. And while it's mostly a functional system (AFAIK, the US health system is horrible), it kind of bothers me that I pay lots of taxes without getting a return. > AFAIK, a good birth in a private hospital is around $1500, so he probably should have gone this way from the beginning. Well, my wife is having complications ... we first went to a private clinic, and the doctor consulting us just shook his head with no advice for us, other than "wait and see what happens" ... and in a private clinic, it's more like $2000 for a normal birth ... and I've heard of a case when the doctor demanded a bribe anyway. So to get proper treatment in this case ... we've had to go to the hospital in Giulesti, which has some of the best doctors available. Now, of course, the doctor we ended up with (Puia Sorin in case you are interested :)), which is renowned for "delivering babies" :) ... treats his patients equally, the only problem being that he's too busy to take on new patients (fortunately, there are still some decent people left).
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  Yes, this is a problem. The best doctors tend to be in the public system... or maybe they're the most networked? There should be plenty of good doctors working from their own offices, but they're probably a lot harder to find / evaluate.

rbanffy 17y ago

Not all problems can be solved by competition. This specific one could be best solved by a strong medical association, backed by strong laws, enforcing ethical behavior.

eru 17y ago
Oh, competition could still help. Interestingly, you can have some forms of competition, even with a public health care system.