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PHP doesn't "suck" it successfully runs thousands of projects, including a handful of huge ones, all over the world. There is plenty of bad python code out ther

by jrcii 11y ago

PHP doesn't "suck" it successfully runs thousands of projects, including a handful of huge ones, all over the world. There is plenty of bad python code out there as well. Maybe not as much, but it hasn't been popular for as long either. In fact I don't recall hearing anything about it for web development until Google standardized around it and everyone jumped on their bandwagon. For those that would immediately reference the "fractal of bad design" article, many of which I suspect have never spent any real time with PHP, here's a point by point rebuttal: http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-fractal-bad-design-hardly-929746.html http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-fractal-bad-... Which reveals that most of the arguments against PHP boil down to "PHP is not X language which I'm used to"

nickpsecurity 11y ago
Same argument can be made for COBOL, which sucks. Anyway, I see you have something to counter a critique. It might be helpful if you provided a link that shows PHP is equal or superior to alternatives in important attributes: 1. Concise code to express common constructs. 2. Easy for 3rd parties maintaining or extending software to understand what it does. 3. Easy for type system, tests, or static analysis to catch errors before they hit production. 4. CPU or memory efficient during runtime. 5. Higher uptime for interpreter and critical libraries. 6. Lower number of defects and vulnerabilities in both interpreter and common libraries. 7. Ease of writing portable code might matter to some in case they like shopping around for cheaper cloud vendors. So, there's a start at a list with important metrics for missing-critical, long-term code in web apps. Got a link(s) showing PHP is equivalent to or better than competition in these?
- Udo 11y ago
  I don't think "PHP sucks!" - "no, it doesn't!" - "unless you can satisfy my 7 point list you are wrong and my biases are correct!" is a productive pattern of communication here, nor is chasing cheap applause lines by attacking a language every 'real hacker' is supposed to reflexively despise. If we're being honest every language has its weak points and things that are disliked even by its proponents. Efforts at improvement are more productively directed towards making things better on your own turf. Taking derivative and uninformed jabs at a language you already dislike and will never use is not a good way to spend your energy, nor is the energy of your opponents well spent in trying to overcome your biases.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    I mostly agree with you. Hence my list of key points that have been the reason for adoption of or migration from a language for production systems. Far from a jab, it's a start at objectively measuring PHP's value vs other languages. I actually have this data for a number of systems languages from studies done in 90's and early 2000's. Despite much talk, I've yet to see a PHP proponent post such objective information in a discussion. So I asked again as I know somebody has to have done an objective analysis or comparison. Yet again, all we hear is (a) critiques are BS, (b) many people use it, and (c) therefore PHP is a good choice. Sounds solid to me! ;)
    - Udo 11y ago
      > the reason for adoption of or migration from a language for production systems People may think they choose languages and runtimes for objective reasons, but objectivity is only a part of it. There are other factors like ecosystem support, public image, fads, suitability for a specific purpose, aesthetic aspects, and how well a certain language resonates with someone personally. In this specific case, I believe there is zero value in convincing someone to use, say, PHP for something (in production or otherwise) if they already dislike the language for any reason. And it's not like you're missing out on anything either for not choosing PHP. There are plenty of options out there. > I've yet to see a PHP proponent post such objective information in a discussion. I'm probably not the best person to do this. While I use PHP and believe in certain contexts it's a good choice for me, I'm less sure about the benefits of evangelizing this in a greater context. There are lots of things in PHP that I actively dislike, as there are in any language I am proficient with. > (a) critiques are BS, (b) many people use it, and (c) therefore PHP is a good choice I think for several reasons PHP's advantages are minimized or even badly understood even by people who write big software packages in it. That's just my opinion, though. If you still want my atypical response to your points anyway, I'll give it.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        "People may think they choose languages and runtimes for objective reasons, but objectivity is only a part of it." Oh I agree. It's why I don't knock them for whatever they use for personal projects. Serious stuff I recommend we throw the objectively best we have at. Not PHP or many others for that matter. "I think for several reasons PHP's advantages are minimized or even badly understood even by people who write big software packages in it. That's just my opinion, though. If you still want my atypical response to your points anyway, I'll give it." The one advantage I see is a ton of existing code and programmers to draw on. One of same advantages for C. Also, a great pre-processor for HTML crowd stepping into programming. Original selling point unless I'm mistaken with ColdFusion doing same thing in business for data-driven apps. Those are only two I know vs languages in same space. Certainly add anything that you think are advantages. I try to give everything a fair shake. ;)
thrownear 11y ago
>PHP doesn't "suck" it successfully runs thousands of projects, including a handful of huge ones, all over the world. It also gets hacked like there is no tomorrow, he he. What a joke! Seriously can you believe that that lolphp sub-reddit that I linked has been adding new entries steadily even after six years! Give me one language that can rival this feat! Remember; Each one of those is a gotcha that can bite you when you least expect it. Forget everything. This alone should be enough to keep anyone miles away from this language.

by jrcii 11y ago

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Same argument can be made for COBOL, which sucks. Anyway, I see you have something to counter a critique. It might be helpful if you provided a link that shows PHP is equal or superior to alternatives in important attributes: 1. Concise code to express common constructs. 2. Easy for 3rd parties maintaining or extending software to understand what it does. 3. Easy for type system, tests, or static analysis to catch errors before they hit production. 4. CPU or memory efficient during runtime. 5. Higher uptime for interpreter and critical libraries. 6. Lower number of defects and vulnerabilities in both interpreter and common libraries. 7. Ease of writing portable code might matter to some in case they like shopping around for cheaper cloud vendors. So, there's a start at a list with important metrics for missing-critical, long-term code in web apps. Got a link(s) showing PHP is equivalent to or better than competition in these?

Udo 11y ago
I don't think "PHP sucks!" - "no, it doesn't!" - "unless you can satisfy my 7 point list you are wrong and my biases are correct!" is a productive pattern of communication here, nor is chasing cheap applause lines by attacking a language every 'real hacker' is supposed to reflexively despise. If we're being honest every language has its weak points and things that are disliked even by its proponents. Efforts at improvement are more productively directed towards making things better on your own turf. Taking derivative and uninformed jabs at a language you already dislike and will never use is not a good way to spend your energy, nor is the energy of your opponents well spent in trying to overcome your biases.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  I mostly agree with you. Hence my list of key points that have been the reason for adoption of or migration from a language for production systems. Far from a jab, it's a start at objectively measuring PHP's value vs other languages. I actually have this data for a number of systems languages from studies done in 90's and early 2000's. Despite much talk, I've yet to see a PHP proponent post such objective information in a discussion. So I asked again as I know somebody has to have done an objective analysis or comparison. Yet again, all we hear is (a) critiques are BS, (b) many people use it, and (c) therefore PHP is a good choice. Sounds solid to me! ;)
  - Udo 11y ago
    > the reason for adoption of or migration from a language for production systems People may think they choose languages and runtimes for objective reasons, but objectivity is only a part of it. There are other factors like ecosystem support, public image, fads, suitability for a specific purpose, aesthetic aspects, and how well a certain language resonates with someone personally. In this specific case, I believe there is zero value in convincing someone to use, say, PHP for something (in production or otherwise) if they already dislike the language for any reason. And it's not like you're missing out on anything either for not choosing PHP. There are plenty of options out there. > I've yet to see a PHP proponent post such objective information in a discussion. I'm probably not the best person to do this. While I use PHP and believe in certain contexts it's a good choice for me, I'm less sure about the benefits of evangelizing this in a greater context. There are lots of things in PHP that I actively dislike, as there are in any language I am proficient with. > (a) critiques are BS, (b) many people use it, and (c) therefore PHP is a good choice I think for several reasons PHP's advantages are minimized or even badly understood even by people who write big software packages in it. That's just my opinion, though. If you still want my atypical response to your points anyway, I'll give it.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      "People may think they choose languages and runtimes for objective reasons, but objectivity is only a part of it." Oh I agree. It's why I don't knock them for whatever they use for personal projects. Serious stuff I recommend we throw the objectively best we have at. Not PHP or many others for that matter. "I think for several reasons PHP's advantages are minimized or even badly understood even by people who write big software packages in it. That's just my opinion, though. If you still want my atypical response to your points anyway, I'll give it." The one advantage I see is a ton of existing code and programmers to draw on. One of same advantages for C. Also, a great pre-processor for HTML crowd stepping into programming. Original selling point unless I'm mistaken with ColdFusion doing same thing in business for data-driven apps. Those are only two I know vs languages in same space. Certainly add anything that you think are advantages. I try to give everything a fair shake. ;)

thrownear 11y ago

>PHP doesn't "suck" it successfully runs thousands of projects, including a handful of huge ones, all over the world. It also gets hacked like there is no tomorrow, he he. What a joke! Seriously can you believe that that lolphp sub-reddit that I linked has been adding new entries steadily even after six years! Give me one language that can rival this feat! Remember; Each one of those is a gotcha that can bite you when you least expect it. Forget everything. This alone should be enough to keep anyone miles away from this language.