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genuine question - why should anyone feel patriotic at all? shouldn't we love/like the whole planet? what is the point in getting attached to a place just becau

by vijayr 11y ago

genuine question - why should anyone feel patriotic at all? shouldn't we love/like the whole planet? what is the point in getting attached to a place just because we were born there?

Xcelerate 11y ago
This is something I've often wondered. I've never understand why people in other countries count for "less" than people in one's own country.
- vijayr 11y ago
  It doesn't make much sense in today's world, both practically and theoretically. We share more today than ever (food, music, culture, products, software, ideas and so on). There is no way a country can survive on it's own - people travel so much across the world for work and pleasure, marry across cultures/religions/nationalities etc. If anything, we should look at the world as one entity.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Do you understand why people in other companies count for "less" than people in one's company? To the extend that they want their startup to succeed over the other's in the market? Or why people in one's family count to them for more than people in other people's families? Similar thing. The same reason we take care of our own, but we don't go out of our way to help a stranger in need. It's not that we consider them "less human" or that they actually count for "less" in abstract, but people do have (a) limited resources (so can't help everyone) (b) limited horizon of acquaintences and direct experiences (so can't know everyone) (c) preferences and alliances (so can't care for everyone).
bovermyer 11y ago
The article explains this, to a degree. The short version is that we naturally identify with people similar to us. Geographic separation is an influencer in this. As such, a person will identify more closely with those around him than with those hundreds of miles away. An ingroup and an outgroup are thus formed. Per the article, such a distinction can then lead to either patriotic (pro-ingroup) or nationalist (anti-outgroup) behavior, depending on how strong one's ties to one's own group are. This is why the only way to unify the planet as you suggest is to introduce an extraterrestrial threat strong enough to make our entire species an ingroup. Which is, if you'll forgive the comics nerd moment, exactly what Ozymandias does in the Watchmen.
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  But that doesn't explain why the ingroup and outgroup follow along a nation's borders. >exactly what Ozymandias does in the Watchmen. Although Dr Manhatten casts doubt on whether he achieves that goal for a longer period of time when he last talks to Ozymandias.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >But that doesn't explain why the ingroup and outgroup follow along a nation's borders. They follow across MANY borders, including a nation's. They follow family borders, neighborhood borders, city borders, county borders, state borders, nation borders and even wider cultural borders (e.g. US, UK and Australia closer to each other than to Peru or Brazil, and vice versa).
- kmnc 11y ago
  Even in an X-Risk scenario can we unify without first establishing species equality, or more importantly a universal common sense? Doesn't an X-Risk just establish two groups: the in group who is doing everything to solve the X-Risk and the out group who isn't helping. These groups would then just continue to split themselves up based on small differences likely undermining the actual solution to the X-Risk.
jeremiep 11y ago
Reminds me of this number on Pride by George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA Where he says "Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."
crusso 11y ago
It's a genetic propagation strategy to prefer those more genetically like you than those more different.
coldtea 11y ago
>genuine question - why should anyone feel patriotic at all? shouldn't we love/like the whole planet? I think it's natural (as in "logical") to feel more attached to the place (and by extension country) nearest to you, as its the one you are more familiar with, you get to know it better (both its good and bad sides), and it gets to shape you far more than some remote place that it's just some abstract word to you. "Brooklyn, place X" immediately evokes memories for a Brooklynite, of people, places, shops, relationships, buildings, restaurants, stages in their life etc. Copenhagen and Osaka, not so much. It's also not "just because we were born there" -- it's because we grew up there, which is inherently tied to our lives and who we are, not some random momentary accident like "being born there" is meant to convey. This probably breaks down for people (immigrants, etc.) that came to some place later in life, or to people who the place they live oppresses. Then again, even black slaves have loved the South as a place and a landscape, because it's the place they grew up, fell in love, walked, played, etc. Also tied with all the older persons in their lives they loved and who later died, etc. There are also practical benefits besides the emotional bonds. If you don't love your place more than some abstract "Earth", you're less inclined to improve it, defend it, etc.

by vijayr 11y ago

genuine question - why should anyone feel patriotic at all? shouldn't we love/like the whole planet? what is the point in getting attached to a place just because we were born there?

Xcelerate 11y ago

This is something I've often wondered. I've never understand why people in other countries count for "less" than people in one's own country.

vijayr 11y ago
It doesn't make much sense in today's world, both practically and theoretically. We share more today than ever (food, music, culture, products, software, ideas and so on). There is no way a country can survive on it's own - people travel so much across the world for work and pleasure, marry across cultures/religions/nationalities etc. If anything, we should look at the world as one entity.
coldtea 11y ago
Do you understand why people in other companies count for "less" than people in one's company? To the extend that they want their startup to succeed over the other's in the market? Or why people in one's family count to them for more than people in other people's families? Similar thing. The same reason we take care of our own, but we don't go out of our way to help a stranger in need. It's not that we consider them "less human" or that they actually count for "less" in abstract, but people do have (a) limited resources (so can't help everyone) (b) limited horizon of acquaintences and direct experiences (so can't know everyone) (c) preferences and alliances (so can't care for everyone).

bovermyer 11y ago

The article explains this, to a degree. The short version is that we naturally identify with people similar to us. Geographic separation is an influencer in this. As such, a person will identify more closely with those around him than with those hundreds of miles away. An ingroup and an outgroup are thus formed. Per the article, such a distinction can then lead to either patriotic (pro-ingroup) or nationalist (anti-outgroup) behavior, depending on how strong one's ties to one's own group are. This is why the only way to unify the planet as you suggest is to introduce an extraterrestrial threat strong enough to make our entire species an ingroup. Which is, if you'll forgive the comics nerd moment, exactly what Ozymandias does in the Watchmen.

Kristine1975 11y ago
But that doesn't explain why the ingroup and outgroup follow along a nation's borders. >exactly what Ozymandias does in the Watchmen. Although Dr Manhatten casts doubt on whether he achieves that goal for a longer period of time when he last talks to Ozymandias.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >But that doesn't explain why the ingroup and outgroup follow along a nation's borders. They follow across MANY borders, including a nation's. They follow family borders, neighborhood borders, city borders, county borders, state borders, nation borders and even wider cultural borders (e.g. US, UK and Australia closer to each other than to Peru or Brazil, and vice versa).
kmnc 11y ago
Even in an X-Risk scenario can we unify without first establishing species equality, or more importantly a universal common sense? Doesn't an X-Risk just establish two groups: the in group who is doing everything to solve the X-Risk and the out group who isn't helping. These groups would then just continue to split themselves up based on small differences likely undermining the actual solution to the X-Risk.

jeremiep 11y ago

Reminds me of this number on Pride by George Carlin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OnWnwwxNPA Where he says "Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."

crusso 11y ago

It's a genetic propagation strategy to prefer those more genetically like you than those more different.

coldtea 11y ago

>genuine question - why should anyone feel patriotic at all? shouldn't we love/like the whole planet? I think it's natural (as in "logical") to feel more attached to the place (and by extension country) nearest to you, as its the one you are more familiar with, you get to know it better (both its good and bad sides), and it gets to shape you far more than some remote place that it's just some abstract word to you. "Brooklyn, place X" immediately evokes memories for a Brooklynite, of people, places, shops, relationships, buildings, restaurants, stages in their life etc. Copenhagen and Osaka, not so much. It's also not "just because we were born there" -- it's because we grew up there, which is inherently tied to our lives and who we are, not some random momentary accident like "being born there" is meant to convey. This probably breaks down for people (immigrants, etc.) that came to some place later in life, or to people who the place they live oppresses. Then again, even black slaves have loved the South as a place and a landscape, because it's the place they grew up, fell in love, walked, played, etc. Also tied with all the older persons in their lives they loved and who later died, etc. There are also practical benefits besides the emotional bonds. If you don't love your place more than some abstract "Earth", you're less inclined to improve it, defend it, etc.