4 ms·
Electric car engines are efficient at converting electricity into motion. However, this neglects the efficiency of power plants at converting fuel into electric
by rntz 11y ago
Electric car engines are efficient at converting electricity into motion. However, this neglects the efficiency of power plants at converting fuel into electricity, and the efficiency of transmission of electricity. Taking this into account, electric cars are generally about as bad for the environment as ordinary cars.
Of course, this depends on the cars compared, and more importantly, on how the electricity wherever you live is generated. The real point is: it's far more important to improve how we generate electricity than to get more butts in electric cars.
- mikeash 11y agoEven when your electricity is 100% coal, electrics are still pretty good. Look at a more realistic mix, and they're much better than gas cars. And the grid is getting more green by the day.
- jgalt212 11y agofair enough, but does anyone have any hard stats on this?
- mikeash 11y agoI ran the numbers in a comment a couple weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10527213 The quick version is, a Tesla gets an equivalent of 26MPG or so for CO2 emissions on 100% coal, and twice that on my Virginia mix of 1/3rd coal, 1/3rd gas, 1/3rd nuclear.
- _FKS_ 11y agoIt probably depends on the kind of car. I'd suggest you watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkj-vf1_pzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkj-vf1_pzQ (with english subtitles) - the guy is an automotive engineer. In the first 10 minutes, he compares how an electric car does in a coal-based electricity vs. non-coal. You can quickly see that in a country with heavy coal electricity mix, you're better off driving a gas car. Even Germany is break-even.
- mikeash 11y agoDo you have this in text form, or can you tell me where my numbers went wrong? The math is simple and the numbers behind it are all pretty easy to find. Sure, it depends on the kind of car. A Tesla running on 100% coal is not as good as a first-generation Honda Insight. But if you compare similar cars then electric is at least at parity (for unrealistic 100% coal grids) and typically way better.
- _FKS_ 11y agohttps://energieduthorium.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/la-voiture-nucleaire.ppt https://energieduthorium.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/la-voit... - check from slide 23 on. He compares pretty much the same car, from the same (French) maker, but with one version of the car running on Diesel, and one electric. You can see already that in half of EU countries, including Germany, running a gas car is better than an electric one. Not sure how that does work out in the US, but given that 2/3 of electricity mix in the US are from fossil fuels (from which about 40% coal), you should be closer to Poland. So essentialy, depending on the state where you drive your Tesla, you could be better off with gas powered car (in terms of CO2 emissions).
- mikeash 11y agoI'm surprised that car is so inefficient. The quoted kWh/mile is worse than a Model S, for a much smaller car. That is going to influence the conclusion a ton, no doubt.
- mikhailt 11y agoI agree, we're looking at one tiny part of the big picture. However, to get to the clean energy endgoal, we have to start doing multiple things at the same time, which is what the article was talking about from the European manufacturing side. Tesla is producing batteries in a net-zero factory, powered by solar and wind energy. Superchargers by Tesla are using energy generated and transferred from solar carports and/or other places as much as possible. If more customers buy more electric cars, the more the leverage they have on the politics to build more clean energy efficient generation grids. Right now, not enough people care about this and thus, not enough of the lawmakers do either.
- Animats 11y ago"Tesla is producing batteries in a net-zero factory, powered by solar and wind energy." Tesla is still building their battery factory. All they have right now, after a year, is a half-finished building shell.[1] Tesla is touchy about this; their security guards roughed up some reporters trying to get a picture of the place.[2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDfFmUcJso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDfFmUcJso [2] http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2015/10/09/rgj-photographer-arrested-after-altercation-withtesla-security-guards/73693850/ http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2015/10/09/rgj-photographer-ar...
- mikeash 11y agoThat is an ever so slightly biased account of the situation. Construction began in January, so it's not quite "after a year." What's there currently isn't exactly a "half-finished building shell" but is very close to producing batteries, with production slated to begin early next year. At the same time, it's much less than half finished, because the final factory is going to be huge, and they've only built a tiny part of it so far. Finally, Tesla isn't "touchy," they just don't like people trespassing and trying to run over their security guards.
- barney54 11y agoTesla's claim that they will producing batteries in a net-zero factory is almost certainly not true. They could do it by using their batteries and solar panels, but they almost certainly won't do that because they want reliability and affordability (like the rest of us). They will buy credit and that's where there claims of "net zero" come from. But they will almost certainly use grid electricity.