4 ms·

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average s

> According to a recent study by Course Report, 36 percent of academy attendees are female, and women who graduate from academies actually earn higher average salaries than men. Can we please put to rest that women can't make it in this industry?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
vdaniuk 11y ago
Women != distinct subset of women who have the opportunity and resources to enroll in expensive bootcamps.
- stumac 11y ago
  Wouldn't that argument also apply to men?
  - themartorana 11y ago
    To any defined class, really.
- mycroft-holmes 11y ago
  Unfortunately, that's not what you hear/read/see when you follow any gender activist in tech.
onion2k 11y ago
The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. That's the problem. The industry is set up in a way that isn't inclusive, doesn't treat people equally, and in a lot of cases is actively anti-women because hiring practises don't deal with things like pregnancy well enough. Looking at people who're entering the industry is interesting, but looking at people who've been there for 5, 10 or 20 years is more interesting. Something to note about the average salary - the fact women are paid more is probably a function of them being hired by more progressive and successful companies that pay more. I doubt they're being paid more because they're better - developer quality isn't related to gender as far as I know. Ideally if women had an equal chance of being hired across the industry, including the poorer companies with rubbish wages, then the average pay would be the same.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. Note: we've just shifted the goalpost from "women don't join the industry because its misogynist and elitist" - as it used to be for the past year or two with those discussions - to "women join the industry about just as men do, but later (5-20 years!) leave because industry is misogynist and elitist". Also note: women are being paid more on average. Ok, so feminists have won, right? Can we stop with the gender threads before people realize that: > I doubt they're being paid more because they're better - developer quality isn't related to gender as far as I know. literally means men are being victims of sexism in the field?
  - onion2k 11y ago
    Not at all. They're paid more because the only companies that hire them are good ones, who pay well, and who understand women are just as good as men. In order to have equality the bad companies need to start being equal too. That doesn't make men victims. Men have many more opportunities than women, but mainly at the bottom where companies pay badly.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Now this is a nice thing to believe - the only companies that hire women are the good companies. I assume they're good by virtue of hiring women. So, company + hires women + pays them well => good company, good company => does well on the market. I don't think it stands to scrutiny. I'm not sure if you mean that those companies are morally good, therefore successful on the market (generally, the reverse is true), so I'll ignore this point, but I propose another interpretation: The companies that hire women are the ones that can afford it. Seems more likely, but it would imply that women are less capable than men in this field. Assuming this is not true, with less women than men in the industry, you should expect proportional amounts of them in both "bad" and "good" companies. It should average out to equal pay. Since it's not virtue, and not good companies being charitable, I smell only one other likely explanation: maybe it's profitable for companies to hire women as programmers now? If it's not because of merit, then how could it be? Maybe it's because it is fashionable nowadays to go out of your way to make it good for women, and you risk PR flop if you don't? Here. I smell sexism.
mcv 11y ago
If I understand correctly, those coding academies are new and exactly the thing that are trying to end that discrepancy. When they become more common, and their graduates are becoming more common in the industry, we can put it to rest.
varelse 11y ago
Project this a decade into the future and I envision all sorts of talk-radioish belly-aching from middle-aged GamerGaters who pretty much did it to themselves by sticking strictly to the easy bits and building MVPs without ever diving deep and building something great. I'm not quite sure why this is happening, but I have noticed the trend. Future Shock maybe?
headcanon 11y ago
Can we not make this a gender discussion?
- mycroft-holmes 11y ago
  I'm commenting on specifics within the posted article. This is very common behavior on HN.
crdoconnor 11y ago
The "not enough women in tech" thing is driven by tech CEO donations, I think (over the last 3-4 years anyway). That's why those articles about it and institutions keep popping far more often. It seems to be working, too. I'll not posit why tech CEOs might be trying to drive a flood of new developers into the industry... I'll get accused of being elitist :)
- mycroft-holmes 11y ago
  Seriously? Do you have any sources for this?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

vdaniuk 11y ago

Women != distinct subset of women who have the opportunity and resources to enroll in expensive bootcamps.

stumac 11y ago
Wouldn't that argument also apply to men?
- themartorana 11y ago
  To any defined class, really.
mycroft-holmes 11y ago
Unfortunately, that's not what you hear/read/see when you follow any gender activist in tech.

onion2k 11y ago

The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. That's the problem. The industry is set up in a way that isn't inclusive, doesn't treat people equally, and in a lot of cases is actively anti-women because hiring practises don't deal with things like pregnancy well enough. Looking at people who're entering the industry is interesting, but looking at people who've been there for 5, 10 or 20 years is more interesting. Something to note about the average salary - the fact women are paid more is probably a function of them being hired by more progressive and successful companies that pay more. I doubt they're being paid more because they're better - developer quality isn't related to gender as far as I know. Ideally if women had an equal chance of being hired across the industry, including the poorer companies with rubbish wages, then the average pay would be the same.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
> The number of women in the software industry when they join it might be roughly equal to the number of men, and their salaries might well be higher, but after a few years a lot of the women have left. Note: we've just shifted the goalpost from "women don't join the industry because its misogynist and elitist" - as it used to be for the past year or two with those discussions - to "women join the industry about just as men do, but later (5-20 years!) leave because industry is misogynist and elitist". Also note: women are being paid more on average. Ok, so feminists have won, right? Can we stop with the gender threads before people realize that: > I doubt they're being paid more because they're better - developer quality isn't related to gender as far as I know. literally means men are being victims of sexism in the field?
- onion2k 11y ago
  Not at all. They're paid more because the only companies that hire them are good ones, who pay well, and who understand women are just as good as men. In order to have equality the bad companies need to start being equal too. That doesn't make men victims. Men have many more opportunities than women, but mainly at the bottom where companies pay badly.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Now this is a nice thing to believe - the only companies that hire women are the good companies. I assume they're good by virtue of hiring women. So, company + hires women + pays them well => good company, good company => does well on the market. I don't think it stands to scrutiny. I'm not sure if you mean that those companies are morally good, therefore successful on the market (generally, the reverse is true), so I'll ignore this point, but I propose another interpretation: The companies that hire women are the ones that can afford it. Seems more likely, but it would imply that women are less capable than men in this field. Assuming this is not true, with less women than men in the industry, you should expect proportional amounts of them in both "bad" and "good" companies. It should average out to equal pay. Since it's not virtue, and not good companies being charitable, I smell only one other likely explanation: maybe it's profitable for companies to hire women as programmers now? If it's not because of merit, then how could it be? Maybe it's because it is fashionable nowadays to go out of your way to make it good for women, and you risk PR flop if you don't? Here. I smell sexism.

mcv 11y ago

If I understand correctly, those coding academies are new and exactly the thing that are trying to end that discrepancy. When they become more common, and their graduates are becoming more common in the industry, we can put it to rest.

varelse 11y ago

Project this a decade into the future and I envision all sorts of talk-radioish belly-aching from middle-aged GamerGaters who pretty much did it to themselves by sticking strictly to the easy bits and building MVPs without ever diving deep and building something great. I'm not quite sure why this is happening, but I have noticed the trend. Future Shock maybe?

headcanon 11y ago

Can we not make this a gender discussion?

mycroft-holmes 11y ago
I'm commenting on specifics within the posted article. This is very common behavior on HN.

crdoconnor 11y ago

The "not enough women in tech" thing is driven by tech CEO donations, I think (over the last 3-4 years anyway). That's why those articles about it and institutions keep popping far more often. It seems to be working, too. I'll not posit why tech CEOs might be trying to drive a flood of new developers into the industry... I'll get accused of being elitist :)

mycroft-holmes 11y ago
Seriously? Do you have any sources for this?