5 ms·

Sneaky Microsoft renamed its data slurper before sticking it back in Windows 10

67 points by SimplyUseless 11y ago

acqq 11y ago
It has to be possible to turn these things off, and the users should insist on their right to do that. When we're there, I've seen today in some traffic I collected some regularly occurring telemetry from Firefox. I don't remember agreeing to that.
- Majestic121 11y ago
  Firefox asks you what you want to share when you first use it (it is a band on the bottom). They're definitely not hiding it, and you can change it anytime in the option. Again, not hidden at all.
  - acqq 11y ago
    I've checked, I have "health" and "crash reporter" turned on and "telemetry" turned off, but this connection I've observed to some server named telemetrysomethingmozilla or something such was reestablished after every page load.
    - yrro 11y ago
      I can only suggest you file a bug.
- cm2187 11y ago
  I am sure it must be possible, otherwise windows would become completely unsuitable for any enterprise environment. Quite frankly, if I was the CIO of a large company, it would take a lot of explaining from Microsoft representatives after reading an article like that, to convince myself that my confidential data is not going to leak in mass. Just by the name of a file opened you can tell an M&A transaction. But enterprises have the staff and the budget to look at these things. But they are not the only ones handling very sensitive data. What about journalists, doctors or lawyers? They don't use enterprise licenses.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    What Microsoft should really provide is a "sensitive data environment" switch which switches off all of that collection and enables to comply with the various regulations in term of confidentiality of data for certain professions.
    - TrevorJ 11y ago
      No. Privacy is not a "feature". That implies that the only reason you don't want a company to have your data is that it's sensitive. I don't concede that point, it's my data and I should be in control of it sensitive or not. Data collection needs to be opt in not opt out.
      - cm2187 11y ago
        I agree. But that's not going to convince a company which has a financial incentive to spy on you. But if their product becomes illegal to use without such a switch then you can be certain that they will take it seriously. Well, hopefully more seriously than the browser choice switch.
- rasz_pl 11y ago
  egress windows firewall, set it to deny all, whitelist basics (dhcp/dns) and apps you use (browser etc), you are done
bluejekyll 11y ago
So, on one hand Microsoft is starting to become a good open source player, and then on the other it continues to abuse its users. Nope, I still won't use your products.
- bitmapbrother 11y ago
  If it's free you're the product. Gee, where have I heard that before? Funny, how things boomerang back to hit you in the ass.
  - vetinari 11y ago
    It does not have to be free. It can be an expensive app, but still tried to play games with you. Have you checked, where your (offline) MS-Office connects, while you are working purely on offline files? Until now, it tried the following: www.microsoft.com, watson.microsoft.com, ots.optimize.webtrends.com, support.office.com, services.live.com, officeapps.live.com, live.com.akadns.net.
  - thecatspaw 11y ago
    windows 10 is only free if you have a legitimate key for 8.1
    - mrec 11y ago
      What? I have a legit install of 7, and it never bloody stops nagging me to accept a free upgrade to 10.
      - J_Darnley 11y ago
        What do you mean you don't want it? Just look at the long list of features mentioned in this thread that you will get if you upgrade!
  - iamsohungry 11y ago
    If you actually understood the words you were saying, you'd realize that the topic of this thread is that users are the product even though they've paid for the software. The solution to this problem is software that is free as in freedom, not snarky comments in support of MS.
CurtHagenlocher 11y ago
Is this what's known as "SQM" inside of Microsoft or is it something different?
iza 11y ago
> We already knew Windows 10 Threshold deleted third-party data monitoring tools and cleanup tools, including stalwarts like Spybot and CCleaner. It even disabled Cisco’s VPN software. Just a bug, said Microsoft. Two bugs would be a puzzling coincidence – but something else makes it altogether more troubling. I really doubt this has anything to do with the data collection.
- rasz_pl 11y ago
  TH2 deleted every application with custom driver installed.
ryanlol 11y ago
This article is just ridiculous, the author is going out of their way to attack microsoft instead of just reporting the facts. Terrible journalism. >We already knew Windows 10 Threshold deleted third-party data monitoring tools and cleanup tools, including stalwarts like Spybot and CCleaner. It even disabled Cisco’s VPN software. Just a bug, said Microsoft. >Two bugs would be a puzzling coincidence What makes the existence of software bugs "puzzling"? > The data that DiagTrack collected was typical of a spyware programme So credit cards, passwords, etc... right? >Examples of data we collect include your name, email address, preferences and interests; browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; and application usage. I guess not? > The only way you knew you were being monitored was by eyeballing the list of running processes in Task Manager. That doesn't sound very spyware-esque, you'd probably want to be hiding yourself from the task manager.
- ionised 11y ago
  > you'd probably want to be hiding yourself from the task manager. Why?
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    Why would you want your malware visible to the user?
    - ry_ry 11y ago
      Attacking Microsoft is the done thing. They are wildly successful by any conventional measure and have made themselves a target. Personally I have nothing against the company, we are a .net house and I like their current stuff Win10 is legitimately good and atm visual studio is at least on a par with intellij which I have used extensively. So whilst I bare them no ill will they should absolutely be subject to the highest degree of scrutiny. Apple should too, ofc, and moreso in recent years they are. They real travesty is that all industry leaders (and honestly, tell me windows isn't an industry leader - it bloody /is/ an industry!) aren't held up to the same degree of rigour as Microsoft are.
frik 11y ago
228 comments are below the article, that speaks volumes. Most people are very angry about how Microsoft acts. The phone home spyware in recent updates for Win7/8 and Win10 is pretty creepy and probably illegal in several countries. It also speaks volumes how some MS employees defend their company with rather ridiculous comments. Since the MS Build event many MS employees are on HN: if you are one, instead of downvoting try to read the angry comments from consumers below the article. @Dang / HN admin: who flag such news? Or why is it already on the second page? Can you investigate if there are some voting/flagging-ring/bots active?
- pdkl95 11y ago
  > Most people are very angry about how Microsoft acts. While I support people getting "mad as hell" when a business abuses their customers, harsh words and the occasional strongly worded letter won't change anything. MS will continue along this path until they see their revenue dropping or their market share shrinking. Continuing to use windows - even with the spyware disabled - tells MS that they got away with it. They will continue testing that threshold to see how much they can get away with. This strategy works particularly well because memories are short and every every new release moves the Overton Window[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
drapper 11y ago
OK, this looked rather scary and also rather unbelievable so I did a quick research and unsurprisingly it turned out this is blown way out of proportion (if not downright wrong). The article claims DiagTrack collects "your name, email address, preferences and interests; browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; and application usage". That description is credited to Microsoft itself ("As Microsoft explained"). But if you follow the link it turns out it's not really Microsoft's explanation, but just what some user on official Windows forum wrote. My guess: Windows Technical Preview did (or had ability to do) that and user confused one thing with another. Next thing, DiagTrack came to Windows (TP) via update KB3022345, so let's check that update: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3022345 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3022345 "The Diagnostic and Telemetry service collects diagnostics information about functional issues on Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP). CEIP reports don't contain contact information, such as your name, address, or telephone number. This means CEIP won't ask you to participate in surveys or to read junk email, and you won't be contacted in any other way." Of course, it's still possible there's some foul play here, but I'd prefer it would be investigated first and accusations thrown later, not the other way around.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  That would take longer
- Sophira 11y ago
  Years and years ago I used to read The Register, as it had good content. Now, it's just a tabloid - a technology-oriented one, but a tabloid nevertheless. Unless I'm mistaken, what The Register have said in the article would constitute libel, right?
jeeva 11y ago
If you read this as Connected (User Experience) and (Telemetry) service, it's actually a far better name than the Diagnostics title it had before. And makes perfect sense, when you assume it is for doing the minimal reporting they say it is. /shrugs

67 points by SimplyUseless 11y ago

acqq 11y ago

It has to be possible to turn these things off, and the users should insist on their right to do that. When we're there, I've seen today in some traffic I collected some regularly occurring telemetry from Firefox. I don't remember agreeing to that.

Majestic121 11y ago
Firefox asks you what you want to share when you first use it (it is a band on the bottom). They're definitely not hiding it, and you can change it anytime in the option. Again, not hidden at all.
- acqq 11y ago
  I've checked, I have "health" and "crash reporter" turned on and "telemetry" turned off, but this connection I've observed to some server named telemetrysomethingmozilla or something such was reestablished after every page load.
  - yrro 11y ago
    I can only suggest you file a bug.
cm2187 11y ago
I am sure it must be possible, otherwise windows would become completely unsuitable for any enterprise environment. Quite frankly, if I was the CIO of a large company, it would take a lot of explaining from Microsoft representatives after reading an article like that, to convince myself that my confidential data is not going to leak in mass. Just by the name of a file opened you can tell an M&A transaction. But enterprises have the staff and the budget to look at these things. But they are not the only ones handling very sensitive data. What about journalists, doctors or lawyers? They don't use enterprise licenses.
- cm2187 11y ago
  What Microsoft should really provide is a "sensitive data environment" switch which switches off all of that collection and enables to comply with the various regulations in term of confidentiality of data for certain professions.
  - TrevorJ 11y ago
    No. Privacy is not a "feature". That implies that the only reason you don't want a company to have your data is that it's sensitive. I don't concede that point, it's my data and I should be in control of it sensitive or not. Data collection needs to be opt in not opt out.
    - cm2187 11y ago
      I agree. But that's not going to convince a company which has a financial incentive to spy on you. But if their product becomes illegal to use without such a switch then you can be certain that they will take it seriously. Well, hopefully more seriously than the browser choice switch.
rasz_pl 11y ago
egress windows firewall, set it to deny all, whitelist basics (dhcp/dns) and apps you use (browser etc), you are done

bluejekyll 11y ago

So, on one hand Microsoft is starting to become a good open source player, and then on the other it continues to abuse its users. Nope, I still won't use your products.

bitmapbrother 11y ago
If it's free you're the product. Gee, where have I heard that before? Funny, how things boomerang back to hit you in the ass.
- vetinari 11y ago
  It does not have to be free. It can be an expensive app, but still tried to play games with you. Have you checked, where your (offline) MS-Office connects, while you are working purely on offline files? Until now, it tried the following: www.microsoft.com, watson.microsoft.com, ots.optimize.webtrends.com, support.office.com, services.live.com, officeapps.live.com, live.com.akadns.net.
- thecatspaw 11y ago
  windows 10 is only free if you have a legitimate key for 8.1
  - mrec 11y ago
    What? I have a legit install of 7, and it never bloody stops nagging me to accept a free upgrade to 10.
    - J_Darnley 11y ago
      What do you mean you don't want it? Just look at the long list of features mentioned in this thread that you will get if you upgrade!
- iamsohungry 11y ago
  If you actually understood the words you were saying, you'd realize that the topic of this thread is that users are the product even though they've paid for the software. The solution to this problem is software that is free as in freedom, not snarky comments in support of MS.

CurtHagenlocher 11y ago

Is this what's known as "SQM" inside of Microsoft or is it something different?

iza 11y ago

> We already knew Windows 10 Threshold deleted third-party data monitoring tools and cleanup tools, including stalwarts like Spybot and CCleaner. It even disabled Cisco’s VPN software. Just a bug, said Microsoft. Two bugs would be a puzzling coincidence – but something else makes it altogether more troubling. I really doubt this has anything to do with the data collection.

rasz_pl 11y ago
TH2 deleted every application with custom driver installed.

ryanlol 11y ago

This article is just ridiculous, the author is going out of their way to attack microsoft instead of just reporting the facts. Terrible journalism. >We already knew Windows 10 Threshold deleted third-party data monitoring tools and cleanup tools, including stalwarts like Spybot and CCleaner. It even disabled Cisco’s VPN software. Just a bug, said Microsoft. >Two bugs would be a puzzling coincidence What makes the existence of software bugs "puzzling"? > The data that DiagTrack collected was typical of a spyware programme So credit cards, passwords, etc... right? >Examples of data we collect include your name, email address, preferences and interests; browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; and application usage. I guess not? > The only way you knew you were being monitored was by eyeballing the list of running processes in Task Manager. That doesn't sound very spyware-esque, you'd probably want to be hiding yourself from the task manager.

ionised 11y ago
> you'd probably want to be hiding yourself from the task manager. Why?
- ryanlol 11y ago
  Why would you want your malware visible to the user?
  - ry_ry 11y ago
    Attacking Microsoft is the done thing. They are wildly successful by any conventional measure and have made themselves a target. Personally I have nothing against the company, we are a .net house and I like their current stuff Win10 is legitimately good and atm visual studio is at least on a par with intellij which I have used extensively. So whilst I bare them no ill will they should absolutely be subject to the highest degree of scrutiny. Apple should too, ofc, and moreso in recent years they are. They real travesty is that all industry leaders (and honestly, tell me windows isn't an industry leader - it bloody /is/ an industry!) aren't held up to the same degree of rigour as Microsoft are.

frik 11y ago

228 comments are below the article, that speaks volumes. Most people are very angry about how Microsoft acts. The phone home spyware in recent updates for Win7/8 and Win10 is pretty creepy and probably illegal in several countries. It also speaks volumes how some MS employees defend their company with rather ridiculous comments. Since the MS Build event many MS employees are on HN: if you are one, instead of downvoting try to read the angry comments from consumers below the article. @Dang / HN admin: who flag such news? Or why is it already on the second page? Can you investigate if there are some voting/flagging-ring/bots active?

pdkl95 11y ago
> Most people are very angry about how Microsoft acts. While I support people getting "mad as hell" when a business abuses their customers, harsh words and the occasional strongly worded letter won't change anything. MS will continue along this path until they see their revenue dropping or their market share shrinking. Continuing to use windows - even with the spyware disabled - tells MS that they got away with it. They will continue testing that threshold to see how much they can get away with. This strategy works particularly well because memories are short and every every new release moves the Overton Window[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

drapper 11y ago

OK, this looked rather scary and also rather unbelievable so I did a quick research and unsurprisingly it turned out this is blown way out of proportion (if not downright wrong). The article claims DiagTrack collects "your name, email address, preferences and interests; browsing, search and file history; phone call and SMS data; device configuration and sensor data; and application usage". That description is credited to Microsoft itself ("As Microsoft explained"). But if you follow the link it turns out it's not really Microsoft's explanation, but just what some user on official Windows forum wrote. My guess: Windows Technical Preview did (or had ability to do) that and user confused one thing with another. Next thing, DiagTrack came to Windows (TP) via update KB3022345, so let's check that update: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3022345 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3022345 "The Diagnostic and Telemetry service collects diagnostics information about functional issues on Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP). CEIP reports don't contain contact information, such as your name, address, or telephone number. This means CEIP won't ask you to participate in surveys or to read junk email, and you won't be contacted in any other way." Of course, it's still possible there's some foul play here, but I'd prefer it would be investigated first and accusations thrown later, not the other way around.

paulddraper 11y ago
That would take longer
Sophira 11y ago
Years and years ago I used to read The Register, as it had good content. Now, it's just a tabloid - a technology-oriented one, but a tabloid nevertheless. Unless I'm mistaken, what The Register have said in the article would constitute libel, right?

jeeva 11y ago

If you read this as Connected (User Experience) and (Telemetry) service, it's actually a far better name than the Diagnostics title it had before. And makes perfect sense, when you assume it is for doing the minimal reporting they say it is. /shrugs