5 ms·

To Progress and Back: The Rise and Fall of Erdogan's Turkey

14 points by merusame 11y ago

venomsnake 11y ago
That article is from 24th September. So much has happened since then - it could have been a different eon. And Edogan's turkey is far from fallen. He is also rogue autocrat protected by Article 5 of NATO. And from what I observe he has cleaned the state from people that were believing in Ataturk's Turkey. So the secular people will have an uphill battle against him. And we have the Kurds (that might suddenly begin to receive a lot of russian weapons and training soon) So much wrong could happen with Europe and middle east now - I envy the people in the Americas - it is good to know you are on a different continent.
- matt4077 11y ago
  I'm still hoping that Erogan (and, very similarly, Putin) has overstretched his luck. The HDP is still quite strong after the recent elections, NATO only hesitantly supports his adventures vs. Russia and based on some of my friends there, there's a large and energetic generation of young secular students who see their future in Europe. It's hard sustain an autocracy based only on the rural, old population and with no support from the intellectuals/business leaders/journalists etc. Syria is now Putin vs. Erdogan vs. Al Quaida vs. ISIS vs. Assad vs. Hisbollah (+ EU, US). It'd be fantastic to watch them all lose if there weren't so many innocents involved.
  - calibraxis 11y ago
    Don't forget Rojava (YPG), the most successful fighters against ISIS. Right at Turkey's border — and as Putin made it impossible to ignore, Erdogan supports ISIS. (Apparently Erdogan has dreams of being Caliph.) http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?_r=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia... In my view, their society has ethically surpassed anything in "the West". Obama's in the absurd position of supporting Erdogan against them, despite YPG being the US's most effective ally against ISIS. ("Contradictions of empire", it's maybe called.)
    - afsina 11y ago
      > Erdogan supports ISIS. (Apparently Erdogan has dreams of being Caliph.) Please, do not succumb to this kind of statements. Erdoğan does not support ISIS, but he does not support YPG or PKK either. So when he did not take active action why is he portrayed as ISIS supporter? Did not Turkey do enough to host and feed people from Kobane and treated the wounded Kursdish fighhters? Turkey simply did not want to enter the mess deeper (But we are already in anyway..) He knows that he cannot be a Caliph or such, maybe he had the melancholy of the Ottoman times, but that's past already.
      - venomsnake 11y ago
        Erdogan also did its best to prevent the supply corridor for Kurds from Iraq to Kobane.
        afsina 11y ago
        First, Irak and Syria are neighbors you know that right? And Turkey did allow Iraqi Kurds to enter from Turkish border, but not the PKK.
      - cygx 11y ago
        Please, do not succumb to this kind of statements. Erdoğan does not support ISIS But he at the very least used to collaborate. ISIS is Sunni, they fight Assad, Iran and the Kurds and needed someone to take their oil off their hands. That whole terrorist thing and delusions of world domination aside, from Erdoğan's perspective what's not to like?
        afsina 11y ago
        Is there anybody ISIS does not fight? Turkey lost 130 people with suicide bombings in last 6 months. What were you expecting? Entering Syria with tanks? It is easy to talk from an armchair when you are far away from the fire.
        11y ago
- misja111 11y ago
  Yes, the article is already outdated. Most importantly, there have been elections again, and this time Erdogan's AKP did gain an absolute majority. Which will enable them to fulfill their plans for a strong presidential state with Erdogan himself as the president. Summarizing: there is no 'fall of Erdogan's Turkey', Erdogan is now more powerful than ever. Whether that is good thing, time will tell ...
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    No. He didn't get majority for changing the Turkish constitution. Just the majority to rule. Which is scary in itself, but a lot less scary.
- vetinari 11y ago
  > He is also rogue autocrat protected by Article 5 of NATO. That actually not true. Article 5 is talking only about members in Euope and North America, not a word about Asia Minor. Source: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
  - hwh 11y ago
    That's because it was written before Turkey and Greece were part of the treaty. See Note 1 in your link at the bottom, which refers to the "Protocol to the North Atlantic Treaty on the Accession of Greece and Turkey": http://www.nato.int/cps/de/natohq/official_texts_17245.htm http://www.nato.int/cps/de/natohq/official_texts_17245.htm - which modifies Article 6 of the original treaty. (to "For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; [...]")

14 points by merusame 11y ago

That article is from 24th September. So much has happened since then - it could have been a different eon. And Edogan's turkey is far from fallen. He is also rogue autocrat protected by Article 5 of NATO. And from what I observe he has cleaned the state from people that were believing in Ataturk's Turkey. So the secular people will have an uphill battle against him. And we have the Kurds (that might suddenly begin to receive a lot of russian weapons and training soon) So much wrong could happen with Europe and middle east now - I envy the people in the Americas - it is good to know you are on a different continent.

matt4077 11y ago
I'm still hoping that Erogan (and, very similarly, Putin) has overstretched his luck. The HDP is still quite strong after the recent elections, NATO only hesitantly supports his adventures vs. Russia and based on some of my friends there, there's a large and energetic generation of young secular students who see their future in Europe. It's hard sustain an autocracy based only on the rural, old population and with no support from the intellectuals/business leaders/journalists etc. Syria is now Putin vs. Erdogan vs. Al Quaida vs. ISIS vs. Assad vs. Hisbollah (+ EU, US). It'd be fantastic to watch them all lose if there weren't so many innocents involved.
- calibraxis 11y ago
  Don't forget Rojava (YPG), the most successful fighters against ISIS. Right at Turkey's border — and as Putin made it impossible to ignore, Erdogan supports ISIS. (Apparently Erdogan has dreams of being Caliph.) http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia-in-hell.html?_r=1 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/a-dream-of-utopia... In my view, their society has ethically surpassed anything in "the West". Obama's in the absurd position of supporting Erdogan against them, despite YPG being the US's most effective ally against ISIS. ("Contradictions of empire", it's maybe called.)
  - afsina 11y ago
    > Erdogan supports ISIS. (Apparently Erdogan has dreams of being Caliph.) Please, do not succumb to this kind of statements. Erdoğan does not support ISIS, but he does not support YPG or PKK either. So when he did not take active action why is he portrayed as ISIS supporter? Did not Turkey do enough to host and feed people from Kobane and treated the wounded Kursdish fighhters? Turkey simply did not want to enter the mess deeper (But we are already in anyway..) He knows that he cannot be a Caliph or such, maybe he had the melancholy of the Ottoman times, but that's past already.
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      Erdogan also did its best to prevent the supply corridor for Kurds from Iraq to Kobane.
      - afsina 11y ago
        First, Irak and Syria are neighbors you know that right? And Turkey did allow Iraqi Kurds to enter from Turkish border, but not the PKK.
    - cygx 11y ago
      Please, do not succumb to this kind of statements. Erdoğan does not support ISIS But he at the very least used to collaborate. ISIS is Sunni, they fight Assad, Iran and the Kurds and needed someone to take their oil off their hands. That whole terrorist thing and delusions of world domination aside, from Erdoğan's perspective what's not to like?
      - afsina 11y ago
        Is there anybody ISIS does not fight? Turkey lost 130 people with suicide bombings in last 6 months. What were you expecting? Entering Syria with tanks? It is easy to talk from an armchair when you are far away from the fire.
        11y ago
misja111 11y ago
Yes, the article is already outdated. Most importantly, there have been elections again, and this time Erdogan's AKP did gain an absolute majority. Which will enable them to fulfill their plans for a strong presidential state with Erdogan himself as the president. Summarizing: there is no 'fall of Erdogan's Turkey', Erdogan is now more powerful than ever. Whether that is good thing, time will tell ...
- venomsnake 11y ago
  No. He didn't get majority for changing the Turkish constitution. Just the majority to rule. Which is scary in itself, but a lot less scary.
vetinari 11y ago
> He is also rogue autocrat protected by Article 5 of NATO. That actually not true. Article 5 is talking only about members in Euope and North America, not a word about Asia Minor. Source: http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
- hwh 11y ago
  That's because it was written before Turkey and Greece were part of the treaty. See Note 1 in your link at the bottom, which refers to the "Protocol to the North Atlantic Treaty on the Accession of Greece and Turkey": http://www.nato.int/cps/de/natohq/official_texts_17245.htm http://www.nato.int/cps/de/natohq/official_texts_17245.htm - which modifies Article 6 of the original treaty. (to "For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack: on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer; [...]")