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Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes o

Everything you've said sounds very logical to me. We don't want to accept what China is doing and go with it, but we certainly don't want to go with embargoes or anything drastic. Things change slowly, and we need to realize that. Demanding things won't work - particularly, I think, in China's case, where responding to a demand would surely hurt their sense of nationalism which they (I think?) value highly. I'm confused at your last statement though. What about KKK protests? They should be allowed and protected. Free speech is for everyone, regardless of opinion. That's the whole point of it.

grandalf 17y ago
That was my point about the KKK protests too... I brought it up b/c many people claim to support free speech but oppose some kinds of free speech, and in essence that's the sort of free speech we have in the US (the KKK has been banned from having its parades, etc.). In China, there is no pretense of free speech, yet some things are allowed and some disallowed. I agree with you that demands won't work, and will probably make things worse. I think the danger of the sort of anti-China propaganda that we're seeing is that it's becoming an emotional groundswell quite similar to the anti-Saddam groundswel that preceeded the Iraq war. Not quite as bad, but there could always be some minor event (a plane shot down accidentally, a person detained, etc.) that would rapidly transform things into an irrational state where we'd have politicians seriously calling for warlike behavior. I think the most important bottom line is that for the vast majority of Chinese people, the status quo will be better for their future and their families than if the US enacts sanctions or intervenes militarily. If we advocate making those people worse off (through sanctions, etc), we should realize that doing so without any cost to ourselves entails great hubris -- the core hubris of neoconservatism.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- PieSquared 17y ago
  It's true... but I assume (and hope) that US politicians are not stupid enough to advocate anything actively harsh against China. China is nearly a superpower, and we do not need anything like another Cold war. (Not that it would be as bad, but two large countries in a state of conflict do note bode well for their inhabitants.)
  - grandalf 17y ago
    We've caused multiple revolutions in Iran, fueled a war between Iran and Iraq, and continue to meddle in Iran's business. I have no such confidence.

grandalf 17y ago

That was my point about the KKK protests too... I brought it up b/c many people claim to support free speech but oppose some kinds of free speech, and in essence that's the sort of free speech we have in the US (the KKK has been banned from having its parades, etc.). In China, there is no pretense of free speech, yet some things are allowed and some disallowed. I agree with you that demands won't work, and will probably make things worse. I think the danger of the sort of anti-China propaganda that we're seeing is that it's becoming an emotional groundswell quite similar to the anti-Saddam groundswel that preceeded the Iraq war. Not quite as bad, but there could always be some minor event (a plane shot down accidentally, a person detained, etc.) that would rapidly transform things into an irrational state where we'd have politicians seriously calling for warlike behavior. I think the most important bottom line is that for the vast majority of Chinese people, the status quo will be better for their future and their families than if the US enacts sanctions or intervenes militarily. If we advocate making those people worse off (through sanctions, etc), we should realize that doing so without any cost to ourselves entails great hubris -- the core hubris of neoconservatism.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
PieSquared 17y ago
It's true... but I assume (and hope) that US politicians are not stupid enough to advocate anything actively harsh against China. China is nearly a superpower, and we do not need anything like another Cold war. (Not that it would be as bad, but two large countries in a state of conflict do note bode well for their inhabitants.)
- grandalf 17y ago
  We've caused multiple revolutions in Iran, fueled a war between Iran and Iraq, and continue to meddle in Iran's business. I have no such confidence.