5 ms·

I'm kind of startled that this type of crime isn't prosecuted as attempted murder. (If I go out and try to hire a hit-man to kill someone, that's how the prose

by cstross 11y ago

I'm kind of startled that this type of crime isn't prosecuted as attempted murder. (If I go out and try to hire a hit-man to kill someone, that's how the prosecuting authorities would deal with me. If I try and trick someone else who is armed into killing someone for me? That's a very short step from paying an assassin -- there's just less money involved. That the armed someone in question is a SWAT team doesn't clearly change the nature of the interaction. QED: attempted murder.)

cmdkeen 11y ago
The problem is that would involve the state conceding that SWAT teams don't exercise sufficient restraint in choosing when to utilise deadly force. It very much should be heavily prosecuted but that is why it can't be attempted murder. Much like why the police can't "shoot to disable" it's to do with the legal implications of what you are admitting.
- rchaud 11y ago
  Maybe not a murder charge, but in the US, there are a number of lesser charges that don't imply direct intent, such as negligent homicide, 3 degrees of manslaughter and others. In the case of deliberate targeting of women based on gender, it's possible to attach a hate crime charge as well, which would add significantly to the possible jail time. At the very least, pursuing some of these charges would build leverage, which may result in the defendant pleading to a lesser charge. That in turn would result in no trial, and circumvent the complicated question of whether SWAT team operations disproportionately increase the risk of death or serious injury.
  - gherkin0 11y ago
    I don't think you're going to solve this problem by merely increasing penalties and throwing more years-in-prison at the perpetrators. Most of them seem to be kids who seem think they're invincible anyway. > At the very least, pursuing some of these charges would build leverage, which may result in the defendant pleading to a lesser charge. That's a really ugly part of the American justice system (e.g. scare the accused with over-inflated penalties to get them to plead guilty with no trial). That should be abandoned. The real solution will be 1) removing SWAT teams from communities that have no real need for them and 2) training police to only use SWAT tactics once they've confirmed they're appropriate for the situation. SWATing pranks are only just one symptom of the overuse of military tactics by police.
MaxfordAndSons 11y ago
Well, consider the percentage of police killings that are classified as murder... .1%? .01%? If someone is killed in a SWAT raid (swatting or otherwise) it's almost always written off as a police officer "justifiably fearing for their life". The officer that shot a sleeping 7 year old girl? Not murder (tried for manslaughter twice, two for two mistrials and then prosecutors dropped it). The officer that threw a flash-bang in a 1 year old boy's crib? Not attempted murder, no charges at all. But to be less negative about it, the vast majority of swatting don't result in accidental police killings, probably for a variety of reasons including the higher concentration of well-trained, veteran officers as SWAT team members than in the police population at large, and the fact that the SWAT team almost certainly outnumbers their targets and all the cognitive effects that can have on the participants.
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rhaps0dy 11y ago
>QED: attempted murder What? Quod erat demonstrandum: attempted murder? Thus it is proven: attempted murder? You probably meant "Summarizing", "In summary", "All in all", or a similar expression.
- ableal 11y ago
  'meaning "which is what had to be proven"' , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.
fencepost 11y ago
Probably not attempted murder, but conspiracy to commit murder, though even that would be a stretch. I'm not sure what charges there might be one step down from that - "conspiracy to engineer a situation where a death is possible?" Though I still think proven prosecutorial misconduct in capital cases should be charged as conspiracy to commit murder (since I'm pretty sure that all states actually classify executions as homicides for cause of death).
- masklinn 11y ago
  What conspiracy? swatters use police response as weapons, it's not a conspiracy it's a person's abuse of the system. If I tie high-voltage to a doorknob to electrocute somebody I'm not conspiring with the utility company I'm abusing what they provide.
PretzelFisch 11y ago
At the very least assault with a deadly weapon seems appropriate.
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by cstross 11y ago

cmdkeen 11y ago

The problem is that would involve the state conceding that SWAT teams don't exercise sufficient restraint in choosing when to utilise deadly force. It very much should be heavily prosecuted but that is why it can't be attempted murder. Much like why the police can't "shoot to disable" it's to do with the legal implications of what you are admitting.

rchaud 11y ago
Maybe not a murder charge, but in the US, there are a number of lesser charges that don't imply direct intent, such as negligent homicide, 3 degrees of manslaughter and others. In the case of deliberate targeting of women based on gender, it's possible to attach a hate crime charge as well, which would add significantly to the possible jail time. At the very least, pursuing some of these charges would build leverage, which may result in the defendant pleading to a lesser charge. That in turn would result in no trial, and circumvent the complicated question of whether SWAT team operations disproportionately increase the risk of death or serious injury.
- gherkin0 11y ago
  I don't think you're going to solve this problem by merely increasing penalties and throwing more years-in-prison at the perpetrators. Most of them seem to be kids who seem think they're invincible anyway. > At the very least, pursuing some of these charges would build leverage, which may result in the defendant pleading to a lesser charge. That's a really ugly part of the American justice system (e.g. scare the accused with over-inflated penalties to get them to plead guilty with no trial). That should be abandoned. The real solution will be 1) removing SWAT teams from communities that have no real need for them and 2) training police to only use SWAT tactics once they've confirmed they're appropriate for the situation. SWATing pranks are only just one symptom of the overuse of military tactics by police.

MaxfordAndSons 11y ago

Well, consider the percentage of police killings that are classified as murder... .1%? .01%? If someone is killed in a SWAT raid (swatting or otherwise) it's almost always written off as a police officer "justifiably fearing for their life". The officer that shot a sleeping 7 year old girl? Not murder (tried for manslaughter twice, two for two mistrials and then prosecutors dropped it). The officer that threw a flash-bang in a 1 year old boy's crib? Not attempted murder, no charges at all. But to be less negative about it, the vast majority of swatting don't result in accidental police killings, probably for a variety of reasons including the higher concentration of well-trained, veteran officers as SWAT team members than in the police population at large, and the fact that the SWAT team almost certainly outnumbers their targets and all the cognitive effects that can have on the participants.

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rhaps0dy 11y ago

>QED: attempted murder What? Quod erat demonstrandum: attempted murder? Thus it is proven: attempted murder? You probably meant "Summarizing", "In summary", "All in all", or a similar expression.

ableal 11y ago
'meaning "which is what had to be proven"' , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.

fencepost 11y ago

Probably not attempted murder, but conspiracy to commit murder, though even that would be a stretch. I'm not sure what charges there might be one step down from that - "conspiracy to engineer a situation where a death is possible?" Though I still think proven prosecutorial misconduct in capital cases should be charged as conspiracy to commit murder (since I'm pretty sure that all states actually classify executions as homicides for cause of death).

masklinn 11y ago
What conspiracy? swatters use police response as weapons, it's not a conspiracy it's a person's abuse of the system. If I tie high-voltage to a doorknob to electrocute somebody I'm not conspiring with the utility company I'm abusing what they provide.

PretzelFisch 11y ago

At the very least assault with a deadly weapon seems appropriate.

deleted 11y ago

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