5 ms·

Some soy is fine, but if we're talking as completely replacing your meat, it could be too much estrogen like compounds. Hence breasts in men and an increased r

Some soy is fine, but if we're talking as completely replacing your meat, it could be too much estrogen like compounds. Hence breasts in men and an increased risk of breast cancer in women. I haven't seen enough studies to definitively rule these out. Besides, variety is always good. It's never wise to put all your eggs in a single basket.

tomp 11y ago
There's just one thing I don't get... Too much carbohydrates are supposed to be bad. Too much soy is supposed to be bad. But the Japanese live the longest, so obviously they can't be that bad. So one of these assumptions must be false: - Japanese eat a lot of rice and/or soy (or products made from them) - Japanese have different genetics that allows them to avoid the negative effects of carbs/soy. We could probably throw fish (mercury) in the mix as well.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- dmm 11y ago
  How much of the japanese diet is actually made up of soy? The numbers I've seen are <5%.
  - lifeformed 11y ago
    It seems like it'd be much more than the 100-200g/wk that they suggest. In China or Taiwan, every day you could drink a big bowl of soy milk for breakfast, and for lunch/dinner eat some mapo tofu, stir fried bean curd sticks, etc.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      I confirm it should be more than that. Miso soup is a daily dish in Japan for about one or 2 meals, and it usually contains 20g of Tofu at least. Then there's soy beans, used in many delicacies, soy sauce used for sushi, a number of dressing using soy as a base... 100-200g/week actually seem a rather low estimate in Japan.
- SolaceQuantum 11y ago
  Actually the Japanese and also many Chinese are running into problems with health because of high salt and such. Soy not as much, and I don't really believe the breast cancer stuff or east asian countries would be the no.1 place for those kinds of cancers.
  - jp555 11y ago
    You think it's salt and not increasing obesity rates?
- noondip 11y ago
  > Too much carbohydrates are supposed to be bad. Carbohydrates are your body and brain's preferred energy source. What makes you think consuming too many is, "bad"? If derived from whole plant sources, carbs are fantastic and shouldn't be restricted.
  - jp555 11y ago
    by the time it hits the bloodstream the carbs in an apple and those in a bowl of lucky charms are identical. it's all broken down into identical fructose and glucose molecules.
    - noondip 11y ago
      The processes by which the two "hit the bloodstream" are quite different. For example, an apple has fiber and phytonutrients which slow the absorption of glucose. Whole fruits are so unlike processed breakfast cereals, I think it's a stretch to say their metabolization is identical.
      - jp555 11y ago
        yep, but 100i/h for 1h vs 10i/h for 10h is the same amount of energy in the end. I didn't mean to say the metabolization is the same at all, and absolutely fibre makes a huge difference, but that's a different macro nutrient from the sugar (fructose/glucose) content.
noondip 11y ago
> Some soy is fine, but if we're talking as completely replacing your meat, it could be too much estrogen like compounds. Are you aware there's estrogen found in virtually all animal products, in concentrations and potency many times greater than any phytoestrogens could possibly deliver? > Hence breasts in men and an increased risk of breast cancer in women. Your source for this claim? I've only found evidence to the contrary, e.g., "Thus, the evidence to date, based largely on case–control studies, suggest that soy food intake in the amount consumed in Asian populations may have protective effects against breast cancer. Overall data based on Asian women, mainly derived from case–control studies, show a dose-dependent, statistically significant association between soy food intake and breast cancer risk reduction. There was an approximately 16% risk reduction per 10 mg of isoflavones intake per day." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18182974 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18182974 "This nested case-control study found an inverse association between plasma genistein and the risk of breast cancer in Japan." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316793 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316793 "Soy isoflavones consumed at levels comparable to those in Asian populations may reduce the risk of cancer recurrence in women receiving tamoxifen therapy and moreover, appears not to interfere with tamoxifen efficacy." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221874 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221874 "In summary, this follow-up study among a population-based sample of breast cancer patients suggests that there may be a beneficial effect of high intake of flavones and isoflavones on all-cause mortality." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006917 "Our study is the third epidemiologic study to report no adverse effects of soy foods on breast cancer prognosis." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21357380 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21357380
- pheroden 11y ago
  Hey, that's great, I hadn't done a deep look for a while. Regardless, my point was more with using it as your only source of protein, which none of these address.
  - noondip 11y ago
    Considering every whole plant food is a complete protein source, a diet consisting of only tofu is impractical and unpalatable, which is why you'll unlikely find such a study.
aparent 11y ago
A small addition to noondip's reply: "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 Also you say that you have not seen enough studies to rule these out; what studies have you seen to make you believe they might be an issue?

tomp 11y ago

There's just one thing I don't get... Too much carbohydrates are supposed to be bad. Too much soy is supposed to be bad. But the Japanese live the longest, so obviously they can't be that bad. So one of these assumptions must be false: - Japanese eat a lot of rice and/or soy (or products made from them) - Japanese have different genetics that allows them to avoid the negative effects of carbs/soy. We could probably throw fish (mercury) in the mix as well.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
dmm 11y ago
How much of the japanese diet is actually made up of soy? The numbers I've seen are <5%.
- lifeformed 11y ago
  It seems like it'd be much more than the 100-200g/wk that they suggest. In China or Taiwan, every day you could drink a big bowl of soy milk for breakfast, and for lunch/dinner eat some mapo tofu, stir fried bean curd sticks, etc.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    I confirm it should be more than that. Miso soup is a daily dish in Japan for about one or 2 meals, and it usually contains 20g of Tofu at least. Then there's soy beans, used in many delicacies, soy sauce used for sushi, a number of dressing using soy as a base... 100-200g/week actually seem a rather low estimate in Japan.
SolaceQuantum 11y ago
Actually the Japanese and also many Chinese are running into problems with health because of high salt and such. Soy not as much, and I don't really believe the breast cancer stuff or east asian countries would be the no.1 place for those kinds of cancers.
- jp555 11y ago
  You think it's salt and not increasing obesity rates?
noondip 11y ago
> Too much carbohydrates are supposed to be bad. Carbohydrates are your body and brain's preferred energy source. What makes you think consuming too many is, "bad"? If derived from whole plant sources, carbs are fantastic and shouldn't be restricted.
- jp555 11y ago
  by the time it hits the bloodstream the carbs in an apple and those in a bowl of lucky charms are identical. it's all broken down into identical fructose and glucose molecules.
  - noondip 11y ago
    The processes by which the two "hit the bloodstream" are quite different. For example, an apple has fiber and phytonutrients which slow the absorption of glucose. Whole fruits are so unlike processed breakfast cereals, I think it's a stretch to say their metabolization is identical.
    - jp555 11y ago
      yep, but 100i/h for 1h vs 10i/h for 10h is the same amount of energy in the end. I didn't mean to say the metabolization is the same at all, and absolutely fibre makes a huge difference, but that's a different macro nutrient from the sugar (fructose/glucose) content.

noondip 11y ago

> Some soy is fine, but if we're talking as completely replacing your meat, it could be too much estrogen like compounds. Are you aware there's estrogen found in virtually all animal products, in concentrations and potency many times greater than any phytoestrogens could possibly deliver? > Hence breasts in men and an increased risk of breast cancer in women. Your source for this claim? I've only found evidence to the contrary, e.g., "Thus, the evidence to date, based largely on case–control studies, suggest that soy food intake in the amount consumed in Asian populations may have protective effects against breast cancer. Overall data based on Asian women, mainly derived from case–control studies, show a dose-dependent, statistically significant association between soy food intake and breast cancer risk reduction. There was an approximately 16% risk reduction per 10 mg of isoflavones intake per day." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18182974 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18182974 "This nested case-control study found an inverse association between plasma genistein and the risk of breast cancer in Japan." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316793 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316793 "Soy isoflavones consumed at levels comparable to those in Asian populations may reduce the risk of cancer recurrence in women receiving tamoxifen therapy and moreover, appears not to interfere with tamoxifen efficacy." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221874 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221874 "In summary, this follow-up study among a population-based sample of breast cancer patients suggests that there may be a beneficial effect of high intake of flavones and isoflavones on all-cause mortality." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18006917 "Our study is the third epidemiologic study to report no adverse effects of soy foods on breast cancer prognosis." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21357380 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21357380

pheroden 11y ago
Hey, that's great, I hadn't done a deep look for a while. Regardless, my point was more with using it as your only source of protein, which none of these address.
- noondip 11y ago
  Considering every whole plant food is a complete protein source, a diet consisting of only tofu is impractical and unpalatable, which is why you'll unlikely find such a study.

aparent 11y ago

A small addition to noondip's reply: "Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524224 Also you say that you have not seen enough studies to rule these out; what studies have you seen to make you believe they might be an issue?