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So why should we eat insects? The standard answer is: it is a cheap and sustainable source of protein. But I have yet to see a convincing argument that it is ch
by phreeza 11y ago
So why should we eat insects? The standard answer is: it is a cheap and sustainable source of protein. But I have yet to see a convincing argument that it is cheaper and more sustainable than soy protein, aka tofu.
- BenderV 11y agoI asked myself the same question. Why do we need to replace meat by something? Are vegans really lacking protein? Moreover, even if it's true, if we just take into account an important diminution of the meat consumption, will people lack proteins? I'm assuming we eat more meat than we ever did in our history.
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- ch0wn 11y agoThe comment you replied to talked about cheap and sustainable sources of protein. Meat is neither.
- masklinn 11y agoChicken, pork, salmon and tuna are definitely cheap sources of protein (depending on the country, but generally at least one of them is cheap).
- kspaans 11y agoThat cheapness is mainly due to non-priced-in externalities (greenhouse gas farts! water use!) and poor treatment of animals (not that I'm a PETA member or anything). EDIT: And as mentioned elsewhere: government subsidies in many countries (and/or import/export controls).
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- masklinn 11y agoSo you agree that there are meats which are cheap sources of protein?
- Retric 11y agoGovernment subsidies don't actually lower economic prices. They just change who pays. Removing those subsidies would double most meat prices which means there far less 'cheap'. There is increasing pressure to lower farming subsides in most of the world in part because food costs have already fallen so much. 1935 1/lb chicken $5.07 (inflation adj), 2011 1lb chicken: $1.34 But, also from a wide range of more politically charged issues.
- tertius 11y agoChicken and bugs are about equal when it comes to gram vs. gram of protein.
- bad_user 11y agoWhy isn't meat a sustainable source of protein? And yes, I'm pretty much aware of current industrial farming processes and what that does to the environment, but maybe you're missing the forest from the trees, as in maybe it's industrial farming that we should get rid of. Plants and animals are basically engines storing and converting the sun's energy into nutrients and natural ecosystems are very much sustainable. Add fossil fuels in the equation, like what the industrial age did and you get the current clusterfuck. Our grandparents seemed to have no problem in raising their own livestock with sustainable practices. Surely we can do better than them, since we live in the information age and all that. And for people worried about efficiency, cost and over-population, we are wasting about one third of the food we produce right now. And we spend much less of our income and time on acquiring food. There is room for taking a step back in terms of throughput and maybe focus on quality rather than quantity. Which might be a good idea given that even though the calories in our food is at an all times high, for the first time in history we're seeing overweight children suffering from malnutrition. The real problem I'm having with your argument, as it's what vegans usually say, is that if you want cheap, you can't beat a combination of corn and soy grown through an industrial process, as these are the most efficient farmed plants we have. Whereas many fruits are very inefficient, consume a lot of water and are not sustainable at scale. Just saying, if you want efficiency, start eating corn.
- nawitus 11y agoAnimals are inefficient and unnecessary in food production. You're pretty much throwing energy out for no benefit.
- qbrass 11y agoAnimals eat things you won't and turn them into things you will eat.
- noondip 11y ago> Why isn't meat a sustainable source of protein? In short, it is because an animal will always eat more food to be food, than would be needed to just feed people on plants directly. > maybe it's industrial farming that we should get rid of "Free-range" farming practices are even more damaging and unsustainable than confined breeding operations, for the simple reason it takes more land and more resources. > Plants and animals are basically engines storing and converting the sun's energy into nutrients and natural ecosystems are very much sustainable. Not quite, plants are the nutrient producers - they synthesize solar energy into every amino acid essential to animals, into phytonutrients, etc. Animals, on the other hand, are nutrient consumers. I.e., animal derived foods are only nutritious because the animals ate plants. > calories in our food is at an all times high That's mostly from animal products and refined, packaged foods. > Whereas many fruits are very inefficient, consume a lot of water and are not sustainable at scale This is simply conjecture. Are you absolutely sure growing fruit is inefficient compared to modern animal agriculture? > start eating corn. Gladly. Starchy vegetables - complex carbohydrates - are the foods our ancestors ate for many years; they are regarded as a diet staple of several ancient societies.
- PerfectElement 11y agoRight, vegans are not protein deficient and many people thrive on high carb diets (see blue zones, adventist health studies, etc.) Unfortunately we've all been bombarded with the protein myth (more protein == healthier) and even the smart people of HN can't seem to question this belief objectively.
- agentultra 11y agoAnd don't forget the cultural indoctrination in the West that meat is manliness. In the northern parts of the hemisphere when Spring rolls around the airwaves are inundated with advertisements for barbecues and beer. Meat from one source or another is the center piece for nearly every meal. And the restaurants, fast or otherwise, are only catering to this obsession with over-indulging in meat. The only thing that seems to turn people off it are cholesterol and heart surgery. Don't get me wrong a good steak is fucking delicious. But for me it's like cake. I can't and don't want to have it often. A good burger is good but to borrow a cliché: too much of a good thing... Can we ever eat insects? Well... can you make it look and taste like a classic cheeseburger? Will I still get my Sunday bacon?
- tertius 11y agoMeat is inherently manly. Consuming meat at the scale that Americans (for instance) do is not manly, it's extremely irresponsible. Steak as cake. I like that. I'm genetically susceptible to cholesterol more so than others. I like this way of thinking about it. Now, I would probably eat steak more often than cake, I don't really eat cake that much.
- briHass 11y agoProbably because it's not a myth that high protein diets are healthful. High protein diets typically result in better maintenance of lean mass (muscle) and better health markers if compared with one that replaces protein with carbs (http://examine.com/faq/how-does-protein-affect-weight-loss/ http://examine.com/faq/how-does-protein-affect-weight-loss/) Many studies have shown that replacing fat or carbs 1:1 (by calories) with protein leads to better body composition and (sometimes) slight weight reduction. (http://authoritynutrition.com/how-protein-can-help-you-lose-weight/ http://authoritynutrition.com/how-protein-can-help-you-lose-...) That's not to say that everyone should be eating bodybuilder levels of protein, but the evidence seems to support that focusing on it ahead of fat/carbs is probably a wise move.
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- halviti 11y agoIt's not just about replacing meat, it's about alternative sources of food. Imagine mass extinction events, global war disrupting supply chains, space colonies, etc. These are instances where you would go.. "thank goodness we developed some decent insect food".
- olaf 11y agoTofu and soy can cause hypothyroidism, no longer recommended to eat more than 100-200g/week source: https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dr-feil.com%2Fallgemein%2Ftofu-und-soja-neu-bewertet.html&edit-text= https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=...
- ekianjo 11y agoIs there such a demonstrable effect on heavy tofu-eating populations like in Japan ?
- cgh 11y agoThe Japanese eat far more seafood than tofu. They consume on average < 9 g of soy protein per day, a tiny amount. By comparison, a single egg has roughly 5 g.
- aparent 11y agohttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16571087 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16571087 "Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function. In contrast, some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients. However, hypothyroid adults need not avoid soy foods. In addition, there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate."
- pheroden 11y agoSome soy is fine, but if we're talking as completely replacing your meat, it could be too much estrogen like compounds. Hence breasts in men and an increased risk of breast cancer in women. I haven't seen enough studies to definitively rule these out. Besides, variety is always good. It's never wise to put all your eggs in a single basket.
- tomp 11y agoThere's just one thing I don't get... Too much carbohydrates are supposed to be bad. Too much soy is supposed to be bad. But the Japanese live the longest, so obviously they can't be that bad. So one of these assumptions must be false: - Japanese eat a lot of rice and/or soy (or products made from them) - Japanese have different genetics that allows them to avoid the negative effects of carbs/soy. We could probably throw fish (mercury) in the mix as well.
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- dmm 11y agoHow much of the japanese diet is actually made up of soy? The numbers I've seen are <5%.
- lifeformed 11y agoIt seems like it'd be much more than the 100-200g/wk that they suggest. In China or Taiwan, every day you could drink a big bowl of soy milk for breakfast, and for lunch/dinner eat some mapo tofu, stir fried bean curd sticks, etc.
- ekianjo 11y agoI confirm it should be more than that. Miso soup is a daily dish in Japan for about one or 2 meals, and it usually contains 20g of Tofu at least. Then there's soy beans, used in many delicacies, soy sauce used for sushi, a number of dressing using soy as a base... 100-200g/week actually seem a rather low estimate in Japan.
- corin_ 11y agoPlenty of people don't like tofu - I hate it, personally - yet love meat. Admitedly, I didn't exactly enjoy the few insects I've tried eating, either.. but what's wrong with having more options for cheap and sustainable protein?
- pistoriusp 11y agoWhat makes you mention that it's sustainable?
- phreeza 11y agoI don't know, just seems to be the general vibe from many of the recent 'eating insects' stories: raising insects is more sustainable than regular meet because it consumes less meat and land, and emits less greenhouse gasses.
- ekianjo 11y agoNot sure if you could produce enough insects for the whole wide world or even a country. For animal products, its been demonstrated at large scale. For insects, it has never been done so I'd like to see how it scales, and what kind of problems come from scaling up. Until then, it's just a nice fantasy.
- blacksmith_tb 11y agoWell, ants and termites together are estimated to have about as much biomass as all cattle, sheep, and goats combined... [1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_%28ecology%29#Global_biomass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_%28ecology%29#Global_b...
- TeMPOraL 11y agoProbably because the main argument behind starting to eat insects is that meat production in the West is unsustainable and devastating ecologically; the main reason we even get to enjoy meat is, from what I've heard, heavy subsidizing of meat production. I've read people saying meat is 10x cheaper than it should be, based just on production costs alone.
- such_a_casual 11y agoThis isn't unique to meat and leaving out that information is misleading. Food in the US is heavily subsidized and overseen by the government for obvious reasons. Just like water is too important to leave to the free market, food is heavily regulated to ensure the health of the nation.
- realusername 11y agoOr just eating less meat and more quality meat from time to time would maybe be less radical than switching completely to insects.
- jo909 11y agoInsects can recycle plant _waste_ into protein. I don't know if that is more effective than using it as compost/fertilizer for soy beans. Most food is wasted directly at the producer when it does not meet some standard (size, form, flaws, color etc). Also there are many parts of plants that are not used at all (stems, leaves etc). I guess it is also much easier to grow just any plant that the insects eat, compared to something that humans like, especially in areas where industrial farming is not effective.
- bitwize 11y agoA Dilbert comic, which I quoted upthread, had the PHB getting Wally and Dilbert to eat bugs as a test of what they're willing to do for his approval. The "insect diet" proposals are the same and that's all they are. The Earth is in crisis; are you willing to eat bugs if that's what it takes to save the environment? No? Then fuck you. Into the chipper-shredder with you, we'll recycle you into protein for starving refugees.
- ant6n 11y agoBecause animal protein is delicious.
- ableal 11y agoI believe it's actually the fat. That's why lean meat requires larding, in cookbooks.
- ekianjo 11y ago> But I have yet to see a convincing argument that it is cheaper and more sustainable than soy protein, aka tofu. This, and I'd like to see a convincing argument that it's actually delicious to eat. Eating is not just about surviving, it should be a pleasure as well, and I think you need to overcome a lot of barriers before you can actually put an insect in your mouth, no matter how "good" it's supposed to be for your health.
- SolaceQuantum 11y agoAll of east asian and indian cuisine would like to have a word.
- nyan4 11y agoIf you are implying that insects are staple food in asia, that is simply not true.
- SolaceQuantum 11y agoThe parent was taking about how soy products like tofu couldn't be tasty.
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- thedavinci2000 11y agoIn Some regions of Mexico people eat a certain type of grasshoper. No worse than eating shrimp or lobster (which is just a really ugly large insect).
- vlehto 11y agoI'd like to taste a convincing argument that tofu is actually delicious to eat. I'd rather eat fried ants.
- nawitus 11y ago
- thelastguy 11y agoIn fact, cockroaches are even cheaper! See, the way to do it is to feed cockroaches, and only cockroaches to chicken. Then, when the chicken gets really fat (full of cockroaches protein!), you kill the chicken, give the food to human to eat. All those juice from the cockroaches. OK. I just threw up.